Episode Poll: 2.13/2.14 Surprise/Innocence

[gabrielleabelle]

Are we already at Surprise/Innocence? I think we are!

Combo poll for these two episodes. Eleven lovely questions! Now, I'm gonna be away from the comp for a good chunk of the day, and there's a chance a couple of these may spark a bit of debate. So behave while I'm away! I don't think I really need to say this cause BtVS fandom is generally

Comments

[enigmaticblues]

You asked a legal question, which means I have to put my lawyer-hat on.

The funny (odd, not ha-ha) thing about statutory rape is that it varies widely from state to state. I'm not sure what the law is in California, but in Nebraska, the age of consent is 16. Here, in order to commit statutory rape, it's a 19/16 thing. Which, applied to Angel's case means that he would have to be over 19 years of age (obvs. he was) and Buffy would have to be under 16 (obvs. she wasn't). After a brief search, it appears that California's age of majority/consent is 18, with the penalties changing depending on the age range of the two people involved.

So, I have a hard time figuring out how I feel about statutory rape as it relates to Buffy and Angel. Technically, it would qualify, but if Buffy were in another state... Maybe not.

[frelling_tralk]

I think the legal age of consent was 17 in California at the time that Surprise aired though

[gabrielleabelle]

The statutory rape thing doesn't bother me at all, truth to tell. It's an odd thing to accuse Angel of. He's a couple centuries old. I don't think he gives a shit about the arbitrary age of consent laws. And I think it's a little random to hold them against him.

On the other hand, the age/power imbalance at this point does squick me, but that's outside the legal question.

[shipperx]

Although, I think that's very much the point that Innocence was trying to make. She'd gone into it like fluffy teen romance and it turned out that much older man was kind of a wanker once he got teh sex from her. (Of course there are the whole "vampire" and "soul" circumstances. But I actually think that's the window dressing on what Joss essentially reveals as a rather stereotypical older man/teen relationship. I always thought the pervy undertones of 14 year old lollipop sucking Buffy in "Becoming" was highlighting this aspect of it.

That said, I wasn't particularly bothered by it at the time. It's just that if I really look at the story... yeah, I kind of think it's part of the point of it.

[frelling_tralk]

B/A didn't bother me as much in season 2, I found it creepier in season 1 where Buffy was written as a lot younger. It always makes go go umm when bouncy, happy Buffy is all "I'd say he should get a girlfriend if he wasn't so old" about Giles in The Witch, and at the same time there was the show trying to sell us on B/A with this very young girl. I really think Angel was out of line at that time to keep slinking around and approaching her in the dark, mysterious stranger way,giving her his jacket, getting jealous over Buffy dating Owen etc. Plus the creepy Becoming flashback with again a very young and naive Buffy. It did feel more equal in season 2, with a more mature Buffy, so it didn't bother me in the same way and I could buy into it more

And I think Spike was just depressed and not caring about the world at the time of Surprise. The Angelus/Dru flirting seemed to motivate him to start fighting again

[gabrielleabelle]

B/A definitely bothers me in S1, but it still bothers me in S2. But I have a pretty sensitive squick when it comes to that huge an age difference in a relationship involving a teenager. Buffy definitely matures a lot after her kinda-death in Prophecy Girl, but she's still exceedingly young-in-spirit...until Angel loses his soul and then she ages liek whoa. *sigh*

[amycooper]

I know (switching fandoms here) that the age difference between Rose Tyler and The Doctor in Who fandom is a huge issue too. Rose is 19 at the show's start (still living with her mother and still acts quite young) and the Doctor is...hard to say. Definitely over 900 years old but there's some indication he might be fibbing about his age and be over a thousand. It is a squick to a lot of people.

I generally find age sorta becomes a moot point to me when dealing with immortal or practically immortal characters. I mean, sure I don't want to see them with kids, but generally around/after 16-17, (depending on the character's maturity in part) I really don't care. In most of those cases, the older character in question is pretty low on options when it comes to dating his (or her) own age bracket.

And, for some reason, human/other relationships and half-human characters always fascinated me.

[gabrielleabelle]

Eh, Doctor/Rose squicks me, too. I'm consistent. :)

[maddie2927]

Regarding #8, I put "not sure" but if anything I'd say more no than yes. Because obviously at first he didn't want the soul at all, he even still tried to be evil and stay with Darla for a time afterwards and I think if he had known about the happiness clause he would have done everything he possibly could have to achieve perfect happiness. Not that it would have been easy with the torment over all the murder and everything, but I definitely don't think it would have taken him 98 years if he had known about it. 98 years is a lot of people who didn't die because Angelus got a soul. It certainly would have helped if Jenny had a) known about it and b) told him, but that's a long time after the fact. Of course I'm assuming that by gypsies you mean the gypsies who cursed him all those years ago, but if you just mean gypsies in general, like Jenny's uncle, then yeah, definitely effective.

[gabrielleabelle]

Of course I'm assuming that by gypsies you mean the gypsies who cursed him all those years ago

Yep. :)

And good point about his behavior after first getting souled up. I hadn't thought about that at all.

[eilowyn]

In order to discuss some of my answers, I gotta go over my most recent season 2 re-watch. It was with my awesome old roommate, and we were alternating between watching Buffy and Supernatural and giggling at the badass awesomeness of Spike and the Winchester boys

[gabrielleabelle]

:)

What? I'm sleepy! Your comment made me giggle!

[eilowyn]

Do I get anything more than a smiley face? I COULD HAVE BEEN TRAUMATIZED RECALLING HOW TRAUMATIZED I WAS!

[rebcake]

I have to agree/identify with all your points, especially the "because I am immature" business. Say it loud! Spuffy and proud!

[local_max]

1. Yay! but not because I think they're hot, but because it's absolutely needed to set up the story. Innocence following an episode where Buffy and Angel had the occasional hearty handshake wouldn't work. And I think it works anyway--their schmoopiness is heartwrenching in rewatch

[local_max]

10. Four stars. I don't mind the schmoop. The Willow/Oz and Xander/Cordy and Giles/Jenny progress is delightful. Cordy yelling "Surprise!" Lots of great foreshadowing in the dream sequence. In retrospect it's pretty hard to believe that sex with Buffy alone actually represents perfect happiness--first times aren't exactly easy, and dude the Judge is out there about to kill people and that's your fault Angel, it's Dru and Spike--what are you doing? Actually, come to think of it, I probably should have said three stars for that reason. Oh well.

11. Five stars. The only competition up to this point in the series is Lie to Me (and maybe, MAYBE Prophecy Girl, but probably not); Innocence is just one classic scene after another. Buffy and Angel at his house. Willow/Xander/Cordy's blowup. Giles and Jenny. Buffy's dream. The rocket launcher. The sheer playfulness of the whole episode's construction--the way the sprinklers go off in the big B/A fight at the end, to recall the rain of the night before. Buffy and Giles' scene.

[shipperx]

In retrospect it's pretty hard to believe that sex with Buffy alone actually represents perfect happiness

I always thought that deep down in some part of himself he won't think about, it's that he thought that a young, virginal Slayer was more or less giving him absolution for his past and wiping his slate clean. I mean, yeah, he loved her. I grant that. But I still kind of think it had a lot to do with having the symbol of eradicating evil vampires offering what appears to be unconditional acceptance and forgiveness was a large part of it.

Frankly, it's probably as much or more delusional than the dream scenario of his perfect day and getting with Cordy was for his next 'perfect happiness' moment. It was really predicated on a rather surprisingly naive thought that there is ever such a thing as a true clean slate.

[local_max]

*nods* I think that is probably what is going on. I had heard that line of reasoning before and I think it does make sense. Buffy is also the anti-Darla, and so Angel gets to resolve his sire/mommy issues over the woman who corrupted him; and she is also like Dru and the gypsy girl--pure of heart--and so someone who can make it up to him for what he has done.