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[frelling_tralk]

Skyler is still one of the most controversial topics of conversation for Breaking Bad and viewers seem to either fall into loving her and Skyler being the best and most flawlessly badass character of the whole show, or being the worst ever and a total bitch of a wife. I'm frustrated though that some of her actual morally ambiguous acts are never

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[infinitewhale]

And she was a far more interesting character than either side want to simplify it down too. Interestingly Vince and Anna also seemed to very much fall into the category of defending Skyler as always the one in the right, even though Vince's writing and Anna's performance made it clear that Skyler was in a lot deeper than that and that, after her initial protestations at Walt dealing drugs, she did end up working alongside Walt.

Ugh. Yes. They do the same with Jesse. I was listening to the Peekaboo commentary the other day and they made a comment about the morality Walt allows Jesse to keep. Are you kidding me? Walt, Jesse, Skyler, Saul, all of them made their own choices.

I think trying to boil these characters down to all good or all bad or as all being some kind of puppets to Walt demeans them completely. They were so much more than that. I wonder if maybe that's why the finale made so many uncomfortable because it didn't play to that end.

[frelling_tralk]

Yeah I think a lot of fans had quite a one-dimensional view of Walt by the end, and so they ended up letting other characters off easy and blaming everything on Walt. I love Jesse as much as anyone, but he did cause an awful lot of his own problems and it seems like that's rarely acknowledged. I commented during my season 3 rematch that it frustrates me a little bit when viewers take his speech to Walt in the hospital as a total character truth and representative of making him some kind of woobie victim, but in the context of the episode I didn't see it that way at all. Yeah Walt had treated Jesse like crap when he cut him out of the business and Jesse was railing against that, but to blame all of his life up to then on teaming up with the great Heisenberg seems like a stretch when you look at where Jesse was already heading in the pilot episode. I always saw his speeches in that episode as meant to contrast with Hank confessing to the beating and taking full responsibility for it, while Jesse is coming up with elaborate revenge

[infinitewhale]

while Jesse is coming up with elaborate revenge schemes and blaming Walt for his having nothing in his life.

Yeah, I saw it more as an angry rant than anything. I mean, Jesse is the one who caused all that. He's the one who started cooking again. I feel sorry for him because he tended to be the one who took the beatings, but he wasn't innocent in it all.

But it's rather common. The same sort of things went down when I dipped my toe in the Sopranos fandom. And you definitely see it in Buffy/Angel fandom. It's just annoying when the writers play to it, too...assuming they do. I wonder sometimes if Vince doesn't just say things to assuage the voice. He'll say on thing then immediately say it's open to the viewer. I usually much prefer Schnauz's take on things.

[frelling_tralk]

Honestly I think that some viewers were almost hoping that Hank and Marie would recognise Jesse as a tragic figure and take him in, so they were quite taken-aback when Hank shrugged Jesse off behind his back with he wouldn't be crying if a junkie criminal did get killed while trying to bring Walt down. Jesse was definitely manipulated by Walt and his life was horribly tragic by the end of the series, but at the same time he was just as at fault for the death of that kid as Walt (well actually Mike was most at fault for bringing in the Nazi Todd in the first place...), but many viewers seemed to forget that and only blame Walt for what went down simply because he had a colder and more contained reaction and Jesse is more loveable

[sabotabby]

I dunno, I love her for her flaws. I have a THING for broken, complex, manipulative characters. I feel like if she did all the same stuff and was male, fandom would love her as a badass antihero, but because she's female (and because of the biases inherent in telling the story from Walt's POV instead of hers), she gets all the hate.

[frelling_tralk]

I agree with what you're saying, I think that she and Walt are quite similar people in some ways in the way they go about things, so I find it frustrating when viewers seem to just hate Skyler for ridiculous reasons like her nagging Walt too much or sleeping with Ted, but then even the viewers that defend her rarely seem to admit to her actual flaws

[goldenusagi]

Yeah, she's neither a devil or an angel. I don't get the mentality of wanting characters to be either horrible or completely blameless.

[frelling_tralk]

:nods: And it seems to come up particularly with female characters. It's definitely more acceptable to acknowledge a male character who is a anti-hero and talk about their flaws, but people seem to either get super-defensive or super-hateful when discussing a female characters warts and all, and so all dimension that the writers are giving her is often overlooked

[ever_neutral]

Yeah… Fandom just does not know how to deal with characters like Skyler. It is quite possible to both defend her against misogyny AND discuss her immoral behaviour.

I was cheering when she threw that awkwardness right back in Walt's face by telling him that "I.F.T" right before joining Walt Junior and his friend for dinner.
So say we all.

Being a bad wife will forever be the worst crime of all in the eyes of many of the fans.
Nail, head.

Fandom in general seems to divide into either seeing Skyler as an unsupportive bitch to Walt, or as some kind of faultless Goddess who wants nothing more than to protect her children, but really both sides are just as extreme with their views on women.
PREACH. And you know, it’s testament to THE SHOW that they allowed Skyler to be so complex. Fandom just missed the point.

As far as Vince and Anna being defensive goes, well, I’m not surprised - they’ve both seen the amount of hate Skyler gets and are/were probably being reactive.

[frelling_tralk]

I guess that it is harder when it comes to a favourite character getting such vicious and widespread hate as Skyler did, something that happens more with female characters anyway, for fans of the character to not just jump right into defending them and interpreting their every action from the best possible light

[waltzmatildah]

URGH, HDU post about Skyler (my QUEEEEEEEN) when I have SO MUCH WORK TO DO, OMG.

But, heh. HERE I AM, REPLYING ANYWAY.

So, basically, I think (hope?!!) I fit in the third category? I LOVE LOVE LOVE Skyler, but I love her 'warts and all' and I also get annoyed when people brush off her (many) 'flaws' or erase them altogether because those things are what makes her HER. She has the propensity to be an awful person. She's arrogant, cold, ruthless, ambitious, spiteful, jealous, hypocritical (note: all things a female 'shouldn't' be!!), but she's also a victim and she's fiercely protective of her kids, and she's brave and scared and A THOUSAND OTHER THINGS

[frelling_tralk]

:nods to everything you're saying: And y'know I wouldn't say that I disliked her by the time of seasons 4 and 5, I definitely appreciated her more by then and her character become someone who fascinated me . But looking back I as well fell into the trap of defining Skyler by her husband in the beginning. I.e in seasons 1 and 2 I wasn't keen on her character and generally thought of it in terms of well she's always nagging Walt for daring to want some time to himself after a cancer diagnosis, tracking down Jesse over her husband smoking pot after said diagnosis, or refusing to let anyone do anything but agree with her during the pillow intervention, but looking back now I think that I too was definitely just seeing her character from Walt's POV and how she affected him, instead of seeing being controlling as being an individual character trait of Skyler's to consider. For me the way that the show was structured early on meant that it was much easier to be in Walt's POV alone, and it was really season 3 that fleshed Skyler out as a

[infinitewhale]

I tend to think they go hand in hand. I don't think the familial situation in S1 is written so much as Walt's POV because to me she's never written antagonistically. Sky is overbearing and controlling in S1, but at the same time it also shows why she is: Walt has quit. He's a pushover. He's a sleep. Sky is the one keeping track of finances. Walt Jr doesn't respect him. It's Sky who goes to confront the kids making fun of Jr and their surprised when Walt does.

If Vince was writing from that angle, I can see why he'd be surprised at how it was taken by some folks.

[frelling_tralk]

I tend to think they go hand in hand. I don't think the familial situation in S1 is written so much as Walt's POV because to me she's never written antagonisticallySkyler is not written as an outright antagonist I agree, but the show always felt very singularly focused on Walter White to me. Both seasons 1 and 5 in particular felt almost solely constructed around Walt's POV, there was little exploration of how characters like Jesse and Marie would ultimately end up in the end for example. Jesse's happy ending from Walt's POV rings false the more you think about what he was actually driving back too, and even the people that Walt was taking out were very much one-dimensional baddies that we see from Walt's POV as bad guys to defeat, even though arguably Lydia had previously been given more dimension than that