Innocence and children - Some thoughts I had watching some children during Mass

[fpb]

Anyone who thinks that children are "innocent" in the moral, let alone the theological, sense of the word, has never spent ten minutes in the company of a real live child; and, what is worse, does not remember, or refuses to remember, his/her own childhood. Certainly children do not have the idea of the depth and extent of evil, of the many ways

Comments

[noblesandwich]

So are you saying that children are innocent or that they aren't? That they're not innocent but represent innocence, maybe? It's almost five in the morning where I am, so I'm afraid my reading comp. isn't quite up to your rambling, incoherent text-walls.

Super-sweet childhood anecdote, by the way. I remember learning how to ride a bike when I was like ten, it was pretty good times.

[fpb]

It sounds to me like your willingness to understand, rather than your ability, is not. Otherwise you would not use insulting language ("rambling, incoherent text-walls").

[noblesandwich]

My apologies for the insult, it was unnecessary and unjust. However, though my assumption was that you meant the latter, I would still like to hear some clarification.

[fpb]

It doesn't seem so hard to understand to me. Children are not innocent in the sense of being incapable of willing and doing evil; to the contrary, their behaviour is, within its own parameters, easily comparable to that of adults who will and do evil. But they are free of the great burden of personal failure, self-doubt and various kinds of shame that goes with adulthood. They have a future rather than a past, and their abundant energy and directness feel like clean mountain water and light as compared with the constant burden of unstated or neglected doubts and weariness of the adult. This freedom from doubt and weariness is a positive fact, something that most children have and that can be felt. It also means that we need, not to preserve that innocence - because that is impossible - but to lead them along a path where there is less of the weariness and self-doubt that we suffer from.

If you still find this hard to understand, I give up.

[noblesandwich]

So they're innocent of things, the way an adult can be innocent of a crime, but not innocent of intent/possible sin. That's my interpretation of your comment, anyway, but due to past incorrect interpretations of your posts by many people, I would appreciate confirmation.

[fpb]

Yes, I think so. Maybe if state what I was denying, things will be clearer. There is a widespread tendency to treat children as if they did not know right from wrong and were not able to will wrongly; if a child breaks a window in a fit of temper, "he didn't know what he was doing". The truth is that he knew it and removed the guilt in ways that are very similar to those used by a guilty adult. So a child can do wrong things and be aware that they are wrong. But a child is clean of all the complexity, self-doubt and hidden guilt that decades of experience have inflicted on adults.

It's not that I don't agree with you, it's that I don't agree with absolutism.

[noblesandwich]

I can agree with that in some cases - many, even, but in other I think the children truly are innocent. Breaking a window is an example of the child's lack of self control, as is stealing a treat or hitting someone who angers them. They may know this is wrong, and still do it, but their sense of morality is undeveloped. Even if they know intellectually that doing so is "bad", they don't grasp much beyond their own desires. YMMV, though, and children are diverse creatures.

Re: It's not that I don't agree with you, it's that I don't agree with absolutism.

[fpb]

And how many adults have any real self-control? How many adults justify doing what they want even though deep down they know it's just plain wrong? I don't think the children are anything special in this. But I have a suspicion that if we go on with this we may start just repeating ourselves, so I suggest we stop now. Thanks for taking an intelligent and (after a rather rocky start) polite interest.

Re: It's not that I don't agree with you, it's that I don't agree with absolutism.

[noblesandwich]

Good idea, and thank you.