fpb

An obvious remark nobody has made yet

Jul 12, 2011 11:03

The ending of World War Two engulfed all countries, victor and neutral, into a tide of horror. Even the Soviet Union, whose government had little to learn from Nazism at its worst, found it easy to show, indeed to feel, horror at what its troops discovered in the early months of 1945 in dozens of camps from Majdanek to Theresienstadt to Auschwitz. ( Read more... )

paedophilia, conscience, pius xii, nazism, catholic church, morality, "hitler's pope"

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virginia_fell July 12 2011, 17:14:09 UTC
Your points about the Catholic Church during the time of the Nazis were a really good read, and an important perspective. I would have loved to have your sources in there, though, if only so that the next time I see that argument about the RCC I can not merely repeat what you said but actually link to new information.

I do find it curious that you blame the pervasive sheltering of pedophiles within the Catholic church on secular culture, when it's the religious nature of the organization that protects it from the kind of accountability that, say, the ASPCA or the Red Cross would have if it developed the same reputation for aiding and abetting pedophiles. When the organization punishes priests more harshly for wanting to ordain women than for molesting local children, I think we have a problem with the actual priorities of the organization itself for which we can't just shift accountability away.

Furthermore, I wonder what indigenous populations would think of your assertion that secular culture is to blame for the allegedly quite recent pattern of pedophile sheltering when for the last several decades their communities are the ones that pedophile priests have been relocated to, so that they'll only be victimizing communities nobody really cares about.

Yes, our current affection for sexualizing children in modern media is completely inappropriate and I cannot really make any excuses for it. However, it's not new, either. I find it really hard to believe that nobody was raping children in the days when it was widely considered acceptable to be married to one (or two, or more).

It is one thing to look at the rampant callous and indeed criminal behavior of the Catholic Church where ordained pedophiles are concerned and say, "They are fucking up, but this is a symptom of a broader cultural problem that they are both a result of and perpetuating," and quite another to say, "The Catholic Church has some problems, okay, but overall they're a good organization and if they become an international pedophile cartel, well I think we should consider how that might be everybody else's fault," which is what this really comes off as.

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fpb July 12 2011, 17:52:38 UTC
I see you are a shareholder in the lie factory. Find out the ratio of paedophiles among American schoolteachers. Then find out how many have gone to jail or lost their jobs. As for the Catholic Church (as opposed to individual bishops) "protecting abusers" and doing so "for religious reasons", if you seriously believe any of this nonsense then facts are beyond your and I will not even bother presenting any.

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virginia_fell July 13 2011, 18:20:44 UTC
Y'know, I don't think I was enough of an asshole to you to deserve that kind of dismissal. You're not even going to cite sources for the things I agreed with you on?

Here are some of the reasons I feel there is a pattern of sheltering pedophiles in the Catholic church that goes beyond the actions of a few isolated individual bishops whose behavior cannot be said to represent their organization.

WI bishops opposed Wisconsin legislation to repeal the statute of limitations on child abuse cases. Whom does that one help, eh? They don't like sex abuse legislation in Connecticut or New York or the D.C. area or Denver or basically anywhere.

New Report Shows Extent of Priest Abuse in Chicago
The percentage of parishes and institutions ministered by credibly accused priests approached 25% in the mid-1990's. In 2009, one in five institutions in the archdiocese still had a credibly accused priest in residence.

"This study raises deeply troubling questions about the way credibly accused priests were sent to parishes and residences. The concentration of assignments in certain areas, the clustering of multiple pedophiles in the same place, and the total absence of assignments to parishes or institutions in other areas, all suggest that assignments were not made strictly in response to changing pastoral needs. The question of what criteria were applied to the assignment of these priests remains to be answered. It is painfully clear that these assignments were not accidental."

Another article on the RCC's habit of relocating predator priests to unsuspecting communities rather than firing them.

The Kansas City Catholic Diocese chooses not to tell the police that one of their priests--who, it should be noted, had received complaints about the way he behaved around children--had a stash of kiddie porn on his computer, and on his very own personal camera.

The Vatican is arguing the following things as reasons why Benedict shouldn't be deposed: "that the pope has immunity as a head of state; that American bishops who oversaw abusive priests weren’t employees of the Vatican," etc. Not "we didn't do this and you have no evidence," but "the pope has diplomatic immunity so nyah."

Another good defense: Blame the Jews! ...Somehow. There are some other hilarious scapegoats listed here.

These are not isolated incidents being invented by an anti-Catholic conspiracy. This behavior from any other organization would be viewed as seriously suspicious. If the ASPCA did this with employees who molested members' dogs they would have been ripped apart and would go down in history as "those people who screwed Saint Bernards," no matter how many times they helped law enforcement and disaster relief in other instances.

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fpb July 14 2011, 20:30:49 UTC
You just gave me an amazing list of reasons to confirm my view that you are a fully-paid-up shareholder in the Lie Factory. The shit about "blame the Jews" alone would prove beyond reasonable doubt that you go hunting for reasons to hate the Church with a lantern. There is no distortion too fucking ridiculous for you not to take it as the light of day. You are evidently looking for nothing but reasons to believe that Catholic priests are abusers and people like me their enablers. That being the case, why should I even bother to answer any of your trash? Your theory assumes that I and people like me are complicit. If I am, you have nothing to gain by having anything to do with me, and if I am not, then the position you have taken is so outrageous that, if you weren't a woman, my only honourable course would be to ask you to step outside and repeat it. Either way, there is no evidence in anything you say that any kind of reasonable dialogue can be started with you. But that is an astounding feature of Catholic and Christian haters of today: you say the most obscene things and imply the most monstrous depravity about us, and then you are surprised if any one of us is offended. If I believed of you half of what you believe of me, I would not so much as leave a note on your LJ; I would walk away from it in disgust. But you seem convinced that the profound and religiously-based depravity of Catholics is something that can be peacefully and politely discussed with Catholics. Well, welcome to planet Earth, mademoiselle. Hope you survive the experience.

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eliskimo July 13 2011, 12:15:51 UTC
I may have mis-read either fpb's writing or yours, but I don't think he said anything about the "pervasive sheltering of pedophiles" being the doing of secular culture. I think he said that priests who abuse children are giving into a side of the sexualization of secular culture. In fact, if I'm reading him correctly, he implied that bishops who protect such priests are just as guilty.

I'm curious about your assertion regarding "when it was widely considered acceptable to be married to one (or two, or more) [children]." I'm not sure when that was. Polygamy has never been acceptable in the Christian era, given St. Paul's admonition regarding being "the husband of one wife."

I have a copy of a translation of the Burgundian Code - a legal code which dates to the 5th century. I find it interesting that the penalty for the abduction of and "violence to" (slightly euphemistic there) an underage girl was that the guilty party must pay 12 times her wergild (wergild being the price paid to the family of a murdered person in Germanic society). That culture at least took the rape of minors VERY seriously.

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OT fpb July 13 2011, 12:56:56 UTC
If that copy is by any chance electronic, could I have a copy? I am currently studying the Longobard Code of Rothari (which has a few interesting surprises of the same kind, such as that the murder of one's wife was one of a very small group of crimes punishable by death and punished by the king - comparable in this to high treason in warfare and plotting against the King).

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Re: OT eliskimo July 13 2011, 13:17:47 UTC
I don't know if it's online. Mine is a bound copy:

The Burgundian Code: Book of Constitutions or Law of Gundobad and Additional Enactments,
Translation by Katherine Fischer Drew, Published by the University of Philadelphia Press, 1949, Third paperback edition, 1988, ISBN (paperback) 0-8122-1035-2

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