Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 20 2008, 14:07:35 UTC
And bear in mind that this is the experience of work for the vast majority of women in the world.
I daresay it's the experience of work for most people in the world! One thing that has often frustrated me about my fellow students is that they don't seem to have a goal in life. They don't seem to have ambition. They don't have that 'dream job'. They want a job because they want something that can buy them a reasonable house and a nice car and all the necessities of life.
More people ought to have a vocation.
l that there is so great a pressure on women to have babies, is that because everyone in the world is telling you to have them - or because you are trying not to hear?
That's an interesting point. Hmm. I haven't personally felt this pressure yet, but I suspect this is because my parents believe I'm far too young. When I'm thirty, I'll have to see which is actually the case. :) Then again, I've told people since I was about ten that I never wanted children. It might actually sink in by the time I'm thirty so maybe nobody will actually say anything!
Heck no. Not everyone can be a doctor, a priest, a teacher, a scholar, or even a policeman or a soldier. Society lives and thrives on the work of people who are just trying to pay the bills. And ultimately, it is not even necessarily the case that a vocation will make you happier or better than anyone else.
Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 20 2008, 14:30:54 UTC
Gah, I think I'm a bit tired. I think I meant that everybody should have some sort of life goal. Whether this be a job, or to make babies, or whatever. However, there'll always be directionless people out there.
Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 23 2008, 11:33:20 UTC
No real purpose other than giving us some sort of hope for our life to have some sort of purpose. But then we all die just the same, so technically, no real benefit. :p
Re: women and babieselskuligrJune 20 2008, 14:53:52 UTC
yeah, there is pressure, though more for some people than others depending how broad-minded your family and social environment is. I think in general there is pressure for people to marry and have children, but the pressure is slightly different and stronger for women, because women are expected to want children more than anything else almost, and to devote themselves to their education. In my experience, if you say you don't like babies, people look at you like you're not a real woman somehow, which I think is weird. Similarly, if you say you'd like to keep a job when you have babies, people make snide remarks like you're not a good mother, not the real thing, or selfish, which they wouldn't say about men. And this I think is totally unjustified because often women who have other interests in life than their children are less likely to put a lot of pressure on their kids and more likely to encourage their kids' socialisation for example by taking them to kindergarten. It's not too bad in France, but it's really bad in Germany in that respect: there if you're a working mother, you're a bad mother for a lot of people.
I definitely second your remark about having an unambitious / uninteresting job being the reality of life for most people, not just for women. But even a job which is not a dream job is important: it means a social circle of colleagues, a role in society that goes beyond the family circle and quite importantly financial independence. Who doesn't recall the joy of, for the first time, buying something with your own money, that you earned yourself rather than with your parents' allowance, without needing to justify your decision to anybody, no matter how useless or unreasonable that purchase might be? It may seem trivial, but I think that's important for most people, including women.
I also agree that having a goal in life is a good thing: it doesn't have to be very definite, but it's important to have some desires, a curiosity, a will to do better, etc because that makes you more alive I think. Similarly, and there I admit this is more questionable, I think it's important for people to have a job. It's ok to take a break when your kids are little. It's ok to have a job which is not very ambitious, but I think people should all take part actively in society. If it's not a paid job, then at least you should be part of an association or be active in politics or something but you know, you should care for things outside your own house.
Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 20 2008, 15:03:08 UTC
I think in general there is pressure for people to marry and have children, but the pressure is slightly different and stronger for women, because women are expected to want children more than anything else almost, and to devote themselves to their education.
Unfortunately yes.
I'm all for parents devoting themselves to their children's education though. I've read studies on how children do better if they are looked after full-time by a parent for their formative years. But I don't think this job should automatically fall back on the woman. What if she's has a better job?
Imo, having children is a huge decision and people should be ready to make sacrifices. But they should be sensible sacrifices that are logical.
It's not too bad in France, but it's really bad in Germany in that respect: there if you're a working mother, you're a bad mother for a lot of people.
Eeek. That sounds awful! My mother basically went back to work a month or so after she had me. Then again, we were in China at the time, so she just left me with my grandparents as goes the custom.
If it's not a paid job, then at least you should be part of an association or be active in politics or something but you know, you should care for things outside your own house.
I agree completely. Only then can you actually care about the world as a whole (the 'bigger picture' as it may). I mean, we might not be able to affect the world as a whole, but it's good to try! And most women can damn well contribute more than our wombs.
The question should rather be: what if she is better at her job? What if society loses more if she quits than if her husband does? Even so, I think that, in spite of your and elskuligr's views, most women simply do feel closer to what they have borne in their womb, than even their husbands do. To sacrifice something for their children comes natural for them; just watch who it is, at dinner, who takes the bad part of the chicken, and lets the child have the thigh or the breast. This instinctive fact often drives the choices of wife and husband.
And why do you refer to "your wombs" as if it was something second-rate? Whatever else anyone can contribute to society, there is only one thing that can give it life. It ought to be a token of special honour; whereas you speak of it as if it was less important and significant than the choice to be swindled by Politician A instead of being defrauded by Politician B.
Re: women and babiessuper_panJune 21 2008, 12:57:34 UTC
"I agree completely. Only then can you actually care about the world as a whole (the 'bigger picture' as it may). I mean, we might not be able to affect the world as a whole, but it's good to try! And most women can damn well contribute more than our wombs."
I think you're making a pretty narrow minded and unkind assumption here. I would think a young woman who wishes to be able to make decisions about her own life and body without pressure and judgement from "society" would extend the same courtesy to women who may make different decisions than you. And I assure you any child bearing woman damn well contributes more than her womb when she conceives, carries, bears, and raises children. Women have to have babies or the human race dies out; how women choose to do this(or not) and live their lives should always be her choice, and should be respected by others.
Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 21 2008, 13:02:48 UTC
I still believe that a woman who believes that her sole contribution to society should be to bear children is being a waste. I understand that it is her choice and I wouldn't try to stop somebody doing it. However, I cannot respect somebody like that. I can tolerate it, and it certainly is her choice and I would campaign for a woman to have those rights. But I'm allowed to believe that it is wasteful. My respect isn't something to be given lightly.
Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 21 2008, 13:23:58 UTC
We're human. We all judge people, whether consciously or unconsciously!
I'm fully in support of somebody's ability to have a choice. But do I have to agree with it too?
I'm supportive of people being religious and believing in a higher power. But it doesn't stop me from believing that it is ridiculous.
Would you stop me from having the ability to air my views on the matter? I'm not criticizing somebody's ability to choose to live their life however they want, nor am I criticizing them airing their opinions on the matter. I'm merely criticizing the choice itself. Just like you (or anybody else) has the right to criticize my choice not to have a baby.
Arguably, there might be a problem if I went to somebody's personal journal and told them that I DISAPPROVE OF YOUR CHOICE NOT TO HAVE A CAREER. But I haven't done that and I never would do that.
Re: women and babiessuper_panJune 21 2008, 13:53:23 UTC
No, I would not try to stop you from airing your views, and I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything to indicate that I would. Nor do I criticise you for not wanting children, and I'm pretty sure I also did not say anything to indicate that I would.
My basic point is I think it's crappy to judge people and their choices when you know nothing about the person or their life. And it bugs me for women to have so little respect for other women. Again, totally your prerogative, I just think it's crappy.
Re: women and babiescuria_regisJune 21 2008, 13:57:09 UTC
No you didn't. :)
In any case, I don't have automatic respect for anybody, so it's more of a case of ... a lack of respect for the human race? I would have respect for somebody who could hold up a coherent and logical argument (such like you have).
My basic point is I think it's crappy to judge people and their choices when you know nothing about the person or their life.
Hey, if I did get to know them and their reasons for their choices, I probably would have respect for them. :) I don't automatically have respect for people who choose a career as their number one goal in life either...
I daresay it's the experience of work for most people in the world! One thing that has often frustrated me about my fellow students is that they don't seem to have a goal in life. They don't seem to have ambition. They don't have that 'dream job'. They want a job because they want something that can buy them a reasonable house and a nice car and all the necessities of life.
More people ought to have a vocation.
l that there is so great a pressure on women to have babies, is that because everyone in the world is telling you to have them - or because you are trying not to hear?
That's an interesting point. Hmm. I haven't personally felt this pressure yet, but I suspect this is because my parents believe I'm far too young. When I'm thirty, I'll have to see which is actually the case. :) Then again, I've told people since I was about ten that I never wanted children. It might actually sink in by the time I'm thirty so maybe nobody will actually say anything!
Reply
Heck no. Not everyone can be a doctor, a priest, a teacher, a scholar, or even a policeman or a soldier. Society lives and thrives on the work of people who are just trying to pay the bills. And ultimately, it is not even necessarily the case that a vocation will make you happier or better than anyone else.
Reply
Reply
(I ask this as a person whose job title when 23 years old was 'Research and Development manager' - I had direction!)
Reply
Reply
I think in general there is pressure for people to marry and have children, but the pressure is slightly different and stronger for women, because women are expected to want children more than anything else almost, and to devote themselves to their education.
In my experience, if you say you don't like babies, people look at you like you're not a real woman somehow, which I think is weird. Similarly, if you say you'd like to keep a job when you have babies, people make snide remarks like you're not a good mother, not the real thing, or selfish, which they wouldn't say about men. And this I think is totally unjustified because often women who have other interests in life than their children are less likely to put a lot of pressure on their kids and more likely to encourage their kids' socialisation for example by taking them to kindergarten.
It's not too bad in France, but it's really bad in Germany in that respect: there if you're a working mother, you're a bad mother for a lot of people.
I definitely second your remark about having an unambitious / uninteresting job being the reality of life for most people, not just for women.
But even a job which is not a dream job is important: it means a social circle of colleagues, a role in society that goes beyond the family circle and quite importantly financial independence. Who doesn't recall the joy of, for the first time, buying something with your own money, that you earned yourself rather than with your parents' allowance, without needing to justify your decision to anybody, no matter how useless or unreasonable that purchase might be? It may seem trivial, but I think that's important for most people, including women.
I also agree that having a goal in life is a good thing: it doesn't have to be very definite, but it's important to have some desires, a curiosity, a will to do better, etc because that makes you more alive I think.
Similarly, and there I admit this is more questionable, I think it's important for people to have a job. It's ok to take a break when your kids are little. It's ok to have a job which is not very ambitious, but I think people should all take part actively in society. If it's not a paid job, then at least you should be part of an association or be active in politics or something but you know, you should care for things outside your own house.
Reply
Unfortunately yes.
I'm all for parents devoting themselves to their children's education though. I've read studies on how children do better if they are looked after full-time by a parent for their formative years. But I don't think this job should automatically fall back on the woman. What if she's has a better job?
Imo, having children is a huge decision and people should be ready to make sacrifices. But they should be sensible sacrifices that are logical.
It's not too bad in France, but it's really bad in Germany in that respect: there if you're a working mother, you're a bad mother for a lot of people.
Eeek. That sounds awful! My mother basically went back to work a month or so after she had me. Then again, we were in China at the time, so she just left me with my grandparents as goes the custom.
If it's not a paid job, then at least you should be part of an association or be active in politics or something but you know, you should care for things outside your own house.
I agree completely. Only then can you actually care about the world as a whole (the 'bigger picture' as it may). I mean, we might not be able to affect the world as a whole, but it's good to try! And most women can damn well contribute more than our wombs.
Reply
And why do you refer to "your wombs" as if it was something second-rate? Whatever else anyone can contribute to society, there is only one thing that can give it life. It ought to be a token of special honour; whereas you speak of it as if it was less important and significant than the choice to be swindled by Politician A instead of being defrauded by Politician B.
Reply
"I agree completely. Only then can you actually care about the world as a whole (the 'bigger picture' as it may). I mean, we might not be able to affect the world as a whole, but it's good to try! And most women can damn well contribute more than our wombs."
I think you're making a pretty narrow minded and unkind assumption here. I would think a young woman who wishes to be able to make decisions about her own life and body without pressure and judgement from "society" would extend the same courtesy to women who may make different decisions than you. And I assure you any child bearing woman damn well contributes more than her womb when she conceives, carries, bears, and raises children. Women have to have babies or the human race dies out; how women choose to do this(or not) and live their lives should always be her choice, and should be respected by others.
Reply
Reply
Reply
I'm fully in support of somebody's ability to have a choice. But do I have to agree with it too?
I'm supportive of people being religious and believing in a higher power. But it doesn't stop me from believing that it is ridiculous.
Would you stop me from having the ability to air my views on the matter? I'm not criticizing somebody's ability to choose to live their life however they want, nor am I criticizing them airing their opinions on the matter. I'm merely criticizing the choice itself. Just like you (or anybody else) has the right to criticize my choice not to have a baby.
Arguably, there might be a problem if I went to somebody's personal journal and told them that I DISAPPROVE OF YOUR CHOICE NOT TO HAVE A CAREER. But I haven't done that and I never would do that.
Reply
My basic point is I think it's crappy to judge people and their choices when you know nothing about the person or their life. And it bugs me for women to have so little respect for other women. Again, totally your prerogative, I just think it's crappy.
Reply
In any case, I don't have automatic respect for anybody, so it's more of a case of ... a lack of respect for the human race? I would have respect for somebody who could hold up a coherent and logical argument (such like you have).
My basic point is I think it's crappy to judge people and their choices when you know nothing about the person or their life.
Hey, if I did get to know them and their reasons for their choices, I probably would have respect for them. :) I don't automatically have respect for people who choose a career as their number one goal in life either...
Reply
I can and do accept that!
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment