The worst of an extremely bad bunch have won

[fpb]

I have refused to vote in the Italian elections, holding that none of the candidates on offer were worthy of even reluctant consent by a free man. Or by anybody free to choose. To have to choose between supporting Veltroni, Berlusconi or the lesser lists is a choice that demeans a human being, and I will not make it. Until the Italian political

Comments

[johncwright]

"... one of the lessons of the last two years is that you cannot govern Italy without Catholic support."

Would that it were this way in my nation. America is basically Protestant, and so one of the only places you can go to hear common sense and Natural Law on every topic from embryo research to contraception expounded from the pulpit, is from a Catholic Church. I wonder if putting the relics of saints in the altars shed some sort of beneficial aura to keep folly at bay.

The Holy Father is coming to Northern Virginia this week. My priest, father Holmes, is going to attend mass with Benedict! My brush with greatness.

[fpb]

Nonetheless, the US and Italy are more like each other in this matter than either of them is like, say, Britain. Britons, who have been socialized from the schoolyard if not the cradle to hate and fear "organized religion" - and not to think of it in any serious way, either - are apt to sneer at the spectacle of left-wing politicians such as Obama and Hillary seriously discussing their own religious experience and views with religious leaders. In Britain, an apparently genuine Christian like Blair had to conceal his faith and vote as if it did not exist, in order to make a career; and his chief ally, Brown, the current prime minister, is a sworn enemy of Christianity who has taken to the cause of atheism the grim moral purpose and Manichean Calvinist attitudes of his Presbyterian ancestors. In France, there has been positive scandal in some quarters when Sarkozy, as a presidential candidate, dared to speak positively of the Church... It is not that Europeans have no religion, it is that the have been positively robbed of it by

[stigandnasty919]

I'm interested in this comment of yours Fabio. It doesn't refer to a Britain I recognise. I would say that any conditioning that I received as a child in terms of religion was most certainly in favour of the church, and the Christian church at that. And that is certainly the case in my daughter's school today. What exactly are you referring to

[fpb]

I am rather surprised that you should challenge me on this matter. Surely you are aware that your experience is scarcely typical of the British state at large. You were raised, so to speak, in an Indian reservation, where practices and attitudes that had been laughed or legislated out of existence in the mainland were allowed to continue for a number of reasons. (Foremost among which being that both "communities" inflicted on the British government and on each other the same kind of "respect" that extreme Muslims have lately been achieving.) I do not have the time to argue this in more depth, although I realize that sooner or later I will, but let me tell you that once you have seen your English friend look around herself and actually drop her voice, as if imparting a dangerous or shameful secret, before she tells you that, yes, she is a Christian, you would not forget it in a hurry. In Italy and in America, the assumption is that being a Christian (or, as we say, credente, a believer) tends to make you a better person; raises

[fpb]

As for Brown's hatred of Christianity and especially Catholicism, do you imagine for a minute that the BBC or the other British media (most of which are ideological allies on this matter) are going to advertise it? Any time that a moron like Ed Balls, Brown's glove puppet, attacks Christian or Jewish schools, they hug themselves with glee. And the BBC has been worse than despicable in the small matter of human/animal hybridization - something that ought to give any self-respecting human being nightmares, and that Brown is pushing in the face of inevitable Christian opposition which he is not so stupid as not to have expected. Have a look at these

As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion...

[fpb]

...I cannot improve on this: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/dec07/blair-the-catholic.htm

Re: As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion - and your earlier comments.

[stigandnasty919]

And I'm surprised, you are surprised. I think you overstate the "Indian Reservation" thing. I may have been brought up in this strange little corner of the world, but I was allowed to travel out of it and do know a fair few people out there in the wide world. I'd say that my experiences in Scotland and Northern England would be that the relationship with religion is similar to that I experienced in my childhood. That being said, I will accept that the areas I'm talking about are mainly rural, rather than urban and that may be where the difference lies

Re: As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion - and your earlier comments.

[fpb]

While regrettable, your experience of some idiot fanatic doesn't count. As well make Jack T.Chick the standard for American Protestantism. (And some Europeans do. Incredibly, I could introduce you to a lecturer in North Irish studies from the University of Tubingen who has described the Methodist George W.Bush as a "fundamentalist" - God help us all.) My point is that if I were to declare myself a credente in my native country, my embarrassment would be that I do not come up to the level that we all, including the opponents of the Catholic Church, expect of credenti. But even my opponents would not instinctively regard me as infantile, ignorant, or backward, and they would not be surprised - as a good friend of mine from Canada was - that I do not believe in the six-day creation. And I still think that you do not realize the depth of ignorance, prejudice and contempt that is routinely bred into English minds by the school system, the BBC, and the newspapers. You believe that the local survivals you encounter are typical. I am

Re: As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion - and your earlier comments.

[stigandnasty919]

I think you misunderstand my mentioning of the idiot fanatic. I did not mean to imply that he was typical of Christians, but that is not to say that the experience does not count. Jack T Chick may not be typical, no I'll rephrase that to avoid confusion, is not typical of American Protestantism, but for many people he is the experience they have of it. This may explain, if not

I won't comment further on the prejudice against Christians, except to say that I consider it to be wrong and admit that my experience is limited to 'the Celtic Fringes' and some parts of north East England. But our experience is different and I'm not going to deny the veracity of your experience.

Re: As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion - and your earlier comments.

[fpb]

I think we will still disagree on many matters, but may I say it is a pleasure to debate things with someone as calm under fire and as courteous as you.

Re: As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion - and your earlier comments.

[stigandnasty919]

Likewise Fabio. I'll just apologise for the little cut and paste error in my last post. The sentence:

Jack T Chick may not be typical, no I'll rephrase that to avoid confusion, is not typical of American Protestantism, but for many people he is the experience they have of it. This may explain, if not...

should have ended 'condone, the vehemence of some idiot fanatics on the atheist side of the debate.

I was sunmoned to assist in the cleaning of a turtle tank and watch an episode of 4400 with my daughter, (an offer I could not refuse), and screwed up the pasteing.

Re: As for the Tory Blur's comfortable conversion - and your earlier comments.

[fpb]

Sounds like you've got your priorities straight.

[fpb]

As for Brown's Presbyterian roots, you cannot first underline the places that an atheist might be coming from, and then deny that it is relevant in a person who has always made a great song and dance of being a son of the manse, even as he pushed policies that would have made his Protestant ancestors retch. Hatred of the Catholic Church is one thing that survives nearly any collapse of faith; that was, if you remember, the beginning of this whole discussion - my contention that, because of their backgrounds, it was impossible for two people like Benito Mussolini and Jack Lewis to convert to Catholicism. Bear in mind that they had nothing else in common, and that while Mussolini probably never heard of Lewis, Lewis had a wholesome contempt for Mussolini from very early on.

[stigandnasty919]

I read this last night and thought about it quite a lot before posting this reply. (Couldn't concentrate on my reading last night - Vol 1 of the Cap Marvel Masterworks

[fpb]

I doubt that Lewis could ever feel hatred for the Catholic Church after his adult experiences, although he makes it clear that he was taught it as a child - and that in an otherwise civilized household. I think, however, that there was an instinctive distaste such as most people will feel in the presence of, say, homosexuality; however much you respect individuals and admire the likes of Virgil and Plato, nonetheless an outright invitation to practice homosexuality would meet, even before any rational response, with an outright *yuk* reaction. I think that describes Lewis' reaction to the Church.

Lewis' marriage

[fpb]

Lewis did not agree to marry Joy Davidman until he had found out that her previous husband - or, to put it as he would have, "husband" - was himself a divorcee with a wife still living. In other words, his approac to marriage was fully Catholic. Joy Davidman would have obtained an annulment in five minutes flat from any diocesan court.