No, I don't think off topic at all. That only happens when the comments get squooshed to one word per line.
And I agree with your fears about reading some authors who can convince you of anything. When I started reading PB fic, I found the archive and saw Michael/Lincoln stories and went: “ewww! Who are the only children writing that?” I'd been a long-time slash fan, but no incest. But of course, being an arrogant little shit, I thought: “I bet they don't even try to explain it,” and I read some. And that was it.
Brilliant writers like halfshellvenus, callmetofu, clex_monkie89, and mooyoo convinced me it could be in character. Despite my squick. What's more, they dragged me into the dark, psychologically screwed up past of the brothers and that's what kept me in the fandom and made me want to write. I'd probably be diddling in SPN now if it weren't for them. My head was filled with fluffy Michael/Sara fics I was writing before I read their stuff.
So I absolutely understand the fear that a good author can convince you of anything - even when it comes to your favorite characters. They sure did me. But I also keep finding that I like being less resistant to “the different.” It kept me here in PB and I've got 6 OTPs now (with 2 on the sideboard). That's a happy fangrl!
tho, admittedly, that means I'm even *farther* behind in my reading!!
And lol! But I thought your Misery Michael was far more sexually twisted than my Thursdays, and I would have said you were taking the bigger chance, tho of course you know I felt it was absolutely perfect. But of course, that's why I loved that Michael.
And that's I suppose another thing that *does* draw me to a fic. Is it out of the norm? A characterization that can be true but not boring or that explores a different aspect of a character - especially in a dark or twisted way - will always entice me. Probably why I worship at the feet of antoine_baros “may her muse come back and make it quick In nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte amen.” I'll skip the most recommended fluff fics in order to wallow in a tale about Michael's erectile dysfunction any day.
That's all about personal preference, of course, but I still have to have those characters believable. My own bottom line, I suppose - tho it's a pretty slack line and it's kinda made of lyra, so it streches....
And lol! But I thought your Misery Michael was far more sexually twisted than my Thursdays, and I would have said you were taking the bigger chance Is that because I actually wrote the sex? Unlike some people *points randomly* who want to write the sex but instead write cute kid Michael and Lincoln? See I viewed the hundreds of partners as far more off-putting that dallying with your brother's girlfriend. But just ask happywriter06 nothing is worse than Veronica sleeping with Michael. No matter what Linc does, Veronica is the badder person. I love how we all view it differently. :D
And, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised since you can read my mind, but you love Conquistador too? Seriously, my favorite line in the whole thing: Oh, and by the way, he can get hard again.
You are pointing at someone behind me, yes? ;P Ok. Hear that.
But hundreds! No, not hundreds! Poor guy. And I was thinking more of Michael's attitude that made it twisted. Thursday Michael just wanted love and any type of connection to another human being. Misery Michael wants to own and control and Possess Veronica and he is motivated, I feel in part, by wanting to possess what Lincoln has/had, be what Lincoln is/was, and in some small dark corner of his heart, perhaps hurt Lincoln for not being just quite good enough.... (that was Dr. Brighton's free analysis)
Well, hundreds might be an exaggeration, and you were sure to mention that he had the same girls again and again who were just using him. And you are right in the different motivation of the sexual deviancy, and in that way you probably win with a more sympathetic Michael. [Not that this is a competition ;-)] I guess I just saw some resemblance, but the more I think about it, the less alike they really are in that regard because Misery Michael doesn't have anything to do with anybody else in a sexual manner, almost like he's 'saving' himself for Vee, but it's really that nothing motivates him like Veronica and Lincoln's dysfunctional relationship did, at least not until he meets Sara. (Not that he never has sex with anyone but Vee ever, but the four years in between 19 and 23 he doesn't.) Anyway, so as not to give away everything that's up-coming...
Your Michael, more sympathetic. My Michael, hot. ;-)
So I absolutely understand the fear that a good author can convince you of anything - even when it comes to your favorite characters. They sure did me
I meant to say, but forgot in the many words that have here been exchanged to say for me, I know they are screwed up, but I guess I'm just not that comfortable with them being that screwed up. :D
Oh! Perfectly legitimate! I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't think they're nearly as screwed up as you and I would write them, even, let alone go that far. Again, a continuum of AU/canon stretching.
It's all I suppose in what you bring to the table with the show. If you can buy a guy would get himself thrown into prison to save his brother with just a basic familial obligation, then you don't need to see any deep psychological issues. The harder you find that to believe, I think the deeper you have to look for Michael's motivation. And in doing that, into what makes Lincoln worthy. I think a large portion of viewers, those less likely to be fannish, don't have to or want to look that deep.
I happen to be one of the ones who not only wants to gaze down the well, I want to dig my fingers in the dirt at the bottom and see what's hiding there. I'm glad there are great writers all along that journey down who feed me at the different levels!
ps I think you would not like to hear that I believe the best characterization of Michael I've done to date is in the slash story I just sent off to a very kind and generous beta. (not incest, tho) I think that Michael is more true to canon!Michael than any I've done before. Not bc of the slash, but how he got there. V. strange.
I was just having a conversation the other day with someone who has been wanting the show to give us a reason why Lincoln was deserving of Michael's devotion (because, I'm guessing, they find Linc unworthy of what Michael has done for him, whether they don't think he's grateful enough or just what, I don't know for sure). Anyway, I made the point that Linc could never be worthy enough, and I don't think he necessarily did anything to warrant Michael's devotion other than be Michael's only family. Michael is screwed up and that is where the devotion comes from. So on that note, I actually (*iz being completely truthful here*) don't see it being canonically incorrect for Michael to be gay or even *in love* (I don't really think of it as love, just like I don't think Michael really loves Veronica in Misery, but that's his term that he labels the emotions with) with Lincoln in that weird twisted way. In that way I can see that that sort of characterization would be true, and accurate, but I still don't get onboard with it because of my own moral code. Lincoln would be more of a stretch for me, because I think of the two of them, he is less screwed up or shall we say more *normal screwed up* if there is such a thing. You know, drugs, alcohol, whoring his way around town, but in a typically masculine fashion, that a lot of people view as men sowing their wild oats or whatever, but I view as searching for happiness in all the wrong places because no one ever taught him what true happiness is.
Anyway. The more I type, the more certain I am that I have thought way too much about people who don't even really exist!
someone who has been wanting the show to give us a reason why Lincoln was deserving of Michael's devotion
I think I wrote imprecisely, bc although I can see why someone might be interested in knowing that, my interest is in knowing why Michael thinks he's worthy. I was unclear. Tho, to that extent, I think you are *absolutely* correct that Lincoln, or any real human being, could never be that “worthy” and that it is only Michael's warped and twisted sense of love and family and what is right that makes him believe that. But I want to know why he thinks that way. And particularly, why he thinks that way about Linc. After all, that's why I love Mike. I think Linc would want to know, too. (Or perhaps he's too afraid to know). And as far as the show goes, they really haven't given us diddly for reasons other than the $90K (worst financial decision evah) and Michael's “rescuer” complex. Phhttbbb! More! Give me more!
And actually, the stories I prefer are of twisted! Michael where he crosses inappropriate boundary lines with his brother, his brother's girlfriend, or using the Conquistador example again, with a woman who doesn't want him, and so forth, because he cannot see the problem with crossing those lines due to his skewed world view. Bc I love him being that messed up.
And the stories that are more convincing to me are also the ones where Lincoln resists an incestuous relationship, bc I do see that, like you, as more canonically Lincoln. But I also buy characterizations where Linc is manipulated by Michael and where he is desperate to help his brother in his twistedness (again, not a word) and would do anything, even break a taboo for him. I think I can see that happening bc it is another aspect of this strange family's need to sacrifice for one another. But then, I am very much assisted in my ability to see all that by the fact that I really don't have an y morals. ;) And again, there are awesome authors in PB who have allowed me to do all that. Gawd I love this fandom! Tho, I'd probably have a life w/o it....
And I agree with your fears about reading some authors who can convince you of anything. When I started reading PB fic, I found the archive and saw Michael/Lincoln stories and went: “ewww! Who are the only children writing that?” I'd been a long-time slash fan, but no incest. But of course, being an arrogant little shit, I thought: “I bet they don't even try to explain it,” and I read some. And that was it.
Brilliant writers like halfshellvenus, callmetofu, clex_monkie89, and mooyoo convinced me it could be in character. Despite my squick. What's more, they dragged me into the dark, psychologically screwed up past of the brothers and that's what kept me in the fandom and made me want to write. I'd probably be diddling in SPN now if it weren't for them. My head was filled with fluffy Michael/Sara fics I was writing before I read their stuff.
So I absolutely understand the fear that a good author can convince you of anything - even when it comes to your favorite characters. They sure did me. But I also keep finding that I like being less resistant to “the different.” It kept me here in PB and I've got 6 OTPs now (with 2 on the sideboard). That's a happy fangrl!
tho, admittedly, that means I'm even *farther* behind in my reading!!
And lol! But I thought your Misery Michael was far more sexually twisted than my Thursdays, and I would have said you were taking the bigger chance, tho of course you know I felt it was absolutely perfect. But of course, that's why I loved that Michael.
And that's I suppose another thing that *does* draw me to a fic. Is it out of the norm? A characterization that can be true but not boring or that explores a different aspect of a character - especially in a dark or twisted way - will always entice me. Probably why I worship at the feet of antoine_baros “may her muse come back and make it quick In nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte amen.” I'll skip the most recommended fluff fics in order to wallow in a tale about Michael's erectile dysfunction any day.
That's all about personal preference, of course, but I still have to have those characters believable. My own bottom line, I suppose - tho it's a pretty slack line and it's kinda made of lyra, so it streches....
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Is that because I actually wrote the sex? Unlike some people *points randomly* who want to write the sex but instead write cute kid Michael and Lincoln? See I viewed the hundreds of partners as far more off-putting that dallying with your brother's girlfriend. But just ask happywriter06 nothing is worse than Veronica sleeping with Michael. No matter what Linc does, Veronica is the badder person. I love how we all view it differently. :D
And, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised since you can read my mind, but you love Conquistador too? Seriously, my favorite line in the whole thing: Oh, and by the way, he can get hard again.
Just love it.
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But hundreds! No, not hundreds! Poor guy. And I was thinking more of Michael's attitude that made it twisted. Thursday Michael just wanted love and any type of connection to another human being. Misery Michael wants to own and control and Possess Veronica and he is motivated, I feel in part, by wanting to possess what Lincoln has/had, be what Lincoln is/was, and in some small dark corner of his heart, perhaps hurt Lincoln for not being just quite good enough.... (that was Dr. Brighton's free analysis)
Conquistador = LOVE!!!
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Your Michael, more sympathetic. My Michael, hot. ;-)
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Literally - wipng the drool from my chin here....
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I meant to say, but forgot in the many words that have here been exchanged to say for me, I know they are screwed up, but I guess I'm just not that comfortable with them being that screwed up. :D
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It's all I suppose in what you bring to the table with the show. If you can buy a guy would get himself thrown into prison to save his brother with just a basic familial obligation, then you don't need to see any deep psychological issues. The harder you find that to believe, I think the deeper you have to look for Michael's motivation. And in doing that, into what makes Lincoln worthy. I think a large portion of viewers, those less likely to be fannish, don't have to or want to look that deep.
I happen to be one of the ones who not only wants to gaze down the well, I want to dig my fingers in the dirt at the bottom and see what's hiding there. I'm glad there are great writers all along that journey down who feed me at the different levels!
ps I think you would not like to hear that I believe the best characterization of Michael I've done to date is in the slash story I just sent off to a very kind and generous beta. (not incest, tho) I think that Michael is more true to canon!Michael than any I've done before. Not bc of the slash, but how he got there. V. strange.
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Anyway. The more I type, the more certain I am that I have thought way too much about people who don't even really exist!
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I think I wrote imprecisely, bc although I can see why someone might be interested in knowing that, my interest is in knowing why Michael thinks he's worthy. I was unclear. Tho, to that extent, I think you are *absolutely* correct that Lincoln, or any real human being, could never be that “worthy” and that it is only Michael's warped and twisted sense of love and family and what is right that makes him believe that. But I want to know why he thinks that way. And particularly, why he thinks that way about Linc. After all, that's why I love Mike. I think Linc would want to know, too. (Or perhaps he's too afraid to know). And as far as the show goes, they really haven't given us diddly for reasons other than the $90K (worst financial decision evah) and Michael's “rescuer” complex. Phhttbbb! More! Give me more!
And actually, the stories I prefer are of twisted! Michael where he crosses inappropriate boundary lines with his brother, his brother's girlfriend, or using the Conquistador example again, with a woman who doesn't want him, and so forth, because he cannot see the problem with crossing those lines due to his skewed world view. Bc I love him being that messed up.
And the stories that are more convincing to me are also the ones where Lincoln resists an incestuous relationship, bc I do see that, like you, as more canonically Lincoln. But I also buy characterizations where Linc is manipulated by Michael and where he is desperate to help his brother in his twistedness (again, not a word) and would do anything, even break a taboo for him. I think I can see that happening bc it is another aspect of this strange family's need to sacrifice for one another. But then, I am very much assisted in my ability to see all that by the fact that I really don't have an y morals. ;) And again, there are awesome authors in PB who have allowed me to do all that. Gawd I love this fandom! Tho, I'd probably have a life w/o it....
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