Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotJanuary 19 2010, 11:44:43 UTC
There's a reason we talk about Arthurian romances and the romance between Arthur and Guinevere in the legends had a compelling dynamic all its own
You have such a point here. I think stoicana made such a great point in a review post some time ago, that likening Arthur/Gwen romance to Romeo/Juliet tragic love is actually insulting the age old love between Arthur and Gwen. Because Romeo and Juliet were entirely too foolish in their so called 'great love', whereas the legends have always shown Gwen and Arthur to be true to each other (despite the hiccup with Lancelot) and Arthur is always portrayed to be this great man of honour. They are nothing like Romeo and Juliet, and I wish people would stop comparing and associating the two, especially for this Arthurian adaptation. It does not make the romance anymore believable nor commpelling. As you said, I want to see the ARTHRUIAN legend's dynamic romance.
[definitely agree with you on the Lancelot/Gwen angle too. What was up with that showing up so soon again??]
Whereas Arthur and Gwen have a whole boatload of issues to deal with.
This cannot go without saying! It's rather interesting, don't you think, that it's meant to be Arthur/Gwen in the end, and yet for this show, Gwen and Lancelot are so much better suited for one another, than Arthur and Gwen are? I also agree with you on Gwen being a realist - I think that's why she takes more of a fancy to Lancelot as well. She knows she has a chance with him, whereas Arthur [for all she knows] he could just be playing games with her.
but I can't understand how she will be an enemy of Arthur and his Camelot.
At the moment that can be said for most of the shows villains. I mean, none of them actually have much of a personal problem with Arthur - it's Uther that they all hate (Arthur by extension, because he is his son and carries out his orders). And then Mordred and Morgana only really have a reason to hate Merlin after all he's done to them - but not Arthur. So how is this going to work in the future??
I made up reasons in my head for their regression
So did I But I agree, things got much better between them later on in the season. Especially when Arthur seems to want to help Merlin but without quite knowing how because even though he possibly is going though some inner conflict about having 'servant friends' [see 2x03 as well as 2x13], he does care for Merlin and isn't afraid to show it.
I do think season 3 *needs* the magical reveal between them because it is getting beyond a joke now that Arthur doesn't seem to have a clue.
This, so damn hard. I can't even believe that they would let it go on for so long. I mean, it's destroying Arthur as a character, making him out to be this complete idiot. Though I really hope when they do have the reveal, that Arthur won't brush it aside and go back to trusting him within an episode, all because of some plot convenience they write in. THAT is possibly the only thing worse I can think of.
So lets just both hope that they have heard Bradley in his wisdom, and are going to go for that kind of reveal. Because I expect it will be just the thing to get the show back on track! ^-^
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockJanuary 19 2010, 18:59:53 UTC
likening Arthur/Gwen romance to Romeo/Juliet tragic love is actually insulting the age old love between Arthur and Gwen.
It is, absolutely. They are two totally different romances with their own unique dynamic. Sometimes I think Johnny Capps assumes all romances are the same when they are not. Arthur/Guinevere was a much more mature love than Romeo and Juliet. It was more 'adult'. Which is possibly why I can't buy the excuse that A/G has flown by so quick 'becuase they are young'. To me it needs to be more than that for me to buy into it. It needs to be have something more to it than 'young people in love'.
[definitely agree with you on the Lancelot/Gwen angle too. What was up with that showing up so soon again??]
I'm waiting for Lancelot to show up in S3 and for that to be a bit wtf? Another thing that is bothering me. Arthur knows Lancelot loves Gwen and that it is mutal. Yet Lancelot is fated to be a trusted knight. How is that going to work now?
It's rather interesting, don't you think, that it's meant to be Arthur/Gwen in the end, and yet for this show, Gwen and Lancelot are so much better suited for one another, than Arthur and Gwen are?
Yes I do. I don't know if they have deliberately written it that way (I am betting not) but you are right that that is the way is looks. I mean I wouldn't blame Gwen at all for going off with Lancelot as they are a better fit. Perhaps that was the thinking behind it? But then I might be giving them too much credit. Of course Gwen does go back to Arthur in the end of the legends yet with this version I could see her going off with Lancelot and just never coming back.
She knows she has a chance with him, whereas Arthur [for all she knows] he could just be playing games with her.
Yes. This. And she knows the obstacles that are there between them.
At the moment that can be said for most of the shows villains. I mean, none of them actually have much of a personal problem with Arthur - it's Uther that they all hate
Yes. Poor Arthur really just inheriting the villians simply because he is Uther's son.
So how is this going to work in the future??
A very good question. I can;t recall who I was discussing it with but someone mentioned that it is Merlin who is creating 'team Camelot' and not Arthur. It's he who is forging the lines between Camelot and people like Mordred and Morgana and not Arthur. So, as you say, how is going to work with Mordred and Morgana turning against Camelot? Is that going to be the result of Merlin's actions?
But I agree, things got much better between them later on in the season. Especially when Arthur seems to want to help Merlin
I was relieved to see them back to their normal selves *pets the boys* I think it's interesting Arthur knows they have this bond but unlike Merlin he doesn;t know why. He just goes with it.
I can't even believe that they would let it go on for so long. I mean, it's destroying Arthur as a character, making him out to be this complete idiot.
It does Arthur such a disservice on all levels it really does. Surely they must realise this?
So lets just both hope that they have heard Bradley in his wisdom, and are going to go for that kind of reveal. Because I expect it will be just the thing to get the show back on track! ^-^
I do too! They really should listen to Bradley he really has some excellent thoughts on the show. He speaks for the fans too as so mich of what he says is what we want to see.
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotJanuary 22 2010, 10:43:49 UTC
To me it needs to be more than that for me to buy into it. It needs to be have something more to it than 'young people in love'.
Oh my gosh, yes. And I think also, that 'young people in love' cannot portray the extent for which Gwen remorses after Arthur is killed. I mean, you would expect that, after she is with Lancelot and betrays Arthur and then dies as a result, that THIS Gwen would actually go off and be happy with Lancelot. Because that's the clear imagine we've been given. But that's not how it goes in the Legends, and likening it to anything else is just doing it a huge disservice. [In one of them, she goes off to a nunnery after all, right? Somehow can't quite imagine this Gwen being mature enough to cart herself off to a life of celibacy and penance).
I'm waiting for Lancelot to show up in S3 and for that to be a bit wtf? ... Arthur knows Lancelot loves Gwen and that it is mutal. Yet Lancelot is fated to be a trusted knight.
That is going to be so weird. I don't even know how they could possibly make that work, seeing as how Gwen cannot resist Lancelot when he is around, and yet Lancelot has to come back if he is to be made one of the Knights of the Round Table. So is this going to be another episode where Gwen and Lancelot are all "I will love you forever, no matter what!" or something else? Because as you said, Arthur knows about Lancelot now, and yet. What are they going to do with it, I wonder?
I wouldn't blame Gwen at all for going off with Lancelot as they are a better fit.
(I wouldn't blame her either. He is "everything that is right in this world" whereas Arthur is a right bastard. I know how I would definitely chose!)
Gwen does go back to Arthur in the end of the legends yet with this version I could see her going off with Lancelot and just never coming back.
*nods* I think thats what I was trying to articulate earlier. It honestly wouldn't surprise me (as vindictive as it sounds) that once Arthur dies, Gwen and Lancelot would be half-saddened and half-elated, because now the one obstacle to their romance is out of the way. Which is a terrible thought, but that's how I feel.
So, as you say, how is going to work with Mordred and Morgana turning against Camelot? Is that going to be the result of Merlin's actions?
I will be interested to see how the writers handle this. I just pray that it won't be something stupid, like Arthur just suddenly [accidentally, of course] kills a random Druid, who happens to be leader of the 'peaceful' clan, and they all get up in arms and storm the castle. Because that would be rather lame. [and entirely predictable].
Arthur knows they have this bond but unlike Merlin he doesn;t know why. He just goes with it.
Yes!! And I think that (more than anything else we've seen this season) is the one thing that shows that Arthur is not so much of an arrogant, self centred, pompous Prince. That he does actually care about other people, and he might actually turn out to be this great King of Camelot.
Surely they must realise this?
Phtt, clearly not. I think they've seen too many episodes of *insert genric 90's kid's show here* where they can drag out the plot by never having the main character figure out the secret everyone else knows.
He speaks for the fans too as so mich of what he says is what we want to see.
Oh my god yes. It's crazy actually, how much he seems to be on a wavelength with us (and he's also there, trying to justify the fuckery of the beginning of S2, just like we are. XDD;)
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockJanuary 22 2010, 23:01:51 UTC
I mean, you would expect that, after she is with Lancelot and betrays Arthur and then dies as a result, that THIS Gwen would actually go off and be happy with Lancelot.
Exactly! And that reflects badly on Gwen and Lancelot but that is the way it is written. The point of Arthur/Guinevere is that in the end she chooses that love over Lancelot. She wasn't buried with Lancelot! And yes I can't see Gwen going off to a nunnery. I picture her and Lancelot crying over Arthur's funeral then going off somewhere. Which is really not how the legend goes.
I don't even know how they could possibly make that work, seeing as how Gwen cannot resist Lancelot when he is around, and yet Lancelot has to come back if he is to be made one of the Knights of the Round Table.
Me either. Unless Arthur and Gwen end up in an open marriage loving other people nad Arthur and Merlin are together (forever) whilst she and Lancelot sleep together and everybody knows and understands.. There are just too many obstacles in the way. Arthur is not going ot be niave enough to think Gwen will be entirely faithful when old flame Lancelot is *right there*. How on earth they are going to write it I have no clue.
And whilst I am pondering...It's pretty clear that Gwen falls for Lancelot from the off before we've had any indication of her liking Arthur romantically (possibly we get the impression she admires him from afar but that's about as far as it might go). So again it's set up in a way that it is Lancelot who should be her true love.
(I wouldn't blame her either. He is "everything that is right in this world" whereas Arthur is a right bastard. I know how I would definitely chose!)
Same here.
Which is a terrible thought, but that's how I feel.
I feel the same way. That's how it has been presented all the way through. First Lancelot's absence was an issue but then when that is gone it will be Arthur who is the issue.
. I just pray that it won't be something stupid, like Arthur just suddenly [accidentally, of course] kills a random Druid, who happens to be leader of the 'peaceful' clan, and they all get up in arms and storm the castle. Because that would be rather lame. [and entirely predictable].
I sense sadly predictablr will be the way it goes. It's interesting that the Druids as a whole are set up as a peaceful loving innocent people. Yet evil Mordred (and I am convinced he's being set up as being 'born' evil. I was rewatching 1x08 last night and I had nto realised before but he is clearly manipulating Merlin at the end with his cries for help. The smug and slightly scary look on his face when Merlin appears made me think that) is a Druid. So you have to wonder about that.
That he does actually care about other people, and he might actually turn out to be this great King of Camelot.
In the second half of the season he did show moments of maturity that did reflect the fact he was a future king.
Phtt, clearly not. I think they've seen too many episodes of *insert genric 90's kid's show here* where they can drag out the plot by never having the main character figure out the secret everyone else knows.
I suspect you are correct.
Oh my god yes. It's crazy actually, how much he seems to be on a wavelength with us (and he's also there, trying to justify the fuckery of the beginning of S2, just like we are. XDD;)
He is. About so many things. And he will talk about it too. He's clearly a fanboy himself hee. But sadly TPTB don't seem to listen to him. I mean in the commentary for 2x04 he was able to really articulate the nuances of the different relationships and I was impressed that he mentioned Lancelot being a handbrake on the A/G relationship because that is how it should have played out given the events of 2x04 but I don't think the writing really showed that.
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotJanuary 24 2010, 05:41:03 UTC
I picture her and Lancelot crying over Arthur's funeral then going off somewhere. Which is really not how the legend goes.
And that is the sad thing about this portrayal. Because so many young people that have NO IDEA about how the Arthurian legend actually plays out, they only know bits and pieces (i.e., that Gwen and Lancelot have an affair), but nothing about how precious the love between Gwen and Arthur is. So the fact that they are completely ignorant and watching Merlin, is it any wonder that they are interpreting things all wrong?
So again it's set up in a way that it is Lancelot who should be her true love.
Which makes me wonder if the writers really are looking at the legend's properly. I mean, I understand that they're trying to "shake things up a bit" with introducing Lancelot so early on. But giving Gwen and Lancelot that connection at the same time really undermines ANYTHING that they could possibly want to pursue for Arthur/Gwen. I will be interested to see where they go with this, but I just hope that they do it justice. (However I am completely on board this idea of Arthur/Gwen being open marriage and Merlin and Lancelot joining in 8D)
First Lancelot's absence was an issue but then when that is gone it will be Arthur who is the issue.
OMG WORD. Seriously, that hits it right on the head. *nodnod*
It's interesting that the Druids as a whole are set up as a peaceful loving innocent people.
I kind of like it, even though it's kind of obvious what they're doing either it (i.e., making Uther out to be an even bigger bastard). It's nice to think that not everyone who's been exiled would be out for revenge though.
I am convinced he's being set up as being 'born' evil. I was rewatching 1x08 last night and I had nto realised before but he is clearly manipulating Merlin at the end with his cries for help.
I think it is, if you say that he was actually quite manipulative in the first season. I don't think I quite saw that, but it would kind of make sense, how he's steadily getting more evil without much of an explanation. (I suppose Voldemort is a good likeness?) I could see it though.
He's clearly a fanboy himself hee. But sadly TPTB don't seem to listen to him.
I know, and I love him all the more for it. It goes beyond just an interest in how his character is going to play out - he really wants what is best for the series. It's sad that TPTB don't take much notice of him - they should. I mean, he's the one at the front of the line, getting all this feedback from fans. AND he's the one that has Arthur's character all figured out, when clearly the producers and writers don't.
I was impressed that he mentioned Lancelot being a handbrake on the A/G relationship because that is how it should have played out given the events of 2x04 but I don't think the writing really showed that.
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockJanuary 24 2010, 12:00:27 UTC
And that is the sad thing about this portrayal. Because so many young people that have NO IDEA about how the Arthurian legend actually plays out,
Yes. I do hope it will inspire them to go back and read up on it, might get them interested, and they they would know but I doubt it. The love between Arthur and Gwen is so important and yet watching this portrayal, depsite the efforts of Johnny Capps, it just isn't coming through. It could have been interesting to flip one interpretation - Arthur being brought up and fostered as a peasant and Guinievere being royal - around but they have chosen to complicate it with all kinds of other things.
But giving Gwen and Lancelot that connection at the same time really undermines ANYTHING that they could possibly want to pursue for Arthur/Gwen
THIS x100. That is the biggest issue with A/G. I mean there are others but Lancelot is the biggest to my mind.
I think part of it is that they are picking bits out of lots of different legends. They seem to mostly draw on Geoffry of Monmouth for some bits and then switch to Mallory for others with the odd bit picked out from other Arthurian writers. Which onthe one hand is good to make a different interpretation but on the other risks the difficulty with all these bits needing to work together.
(However I am completely on board this idea of Arthur/Gwen being open marriage and Merlin and Lancelot joining in 8D)
This is my future head canon. Arthur and Gwen love each other and have a good marriage but they know you can love more than one person at a time and come up with a solution that works for everyone.
It's nice to think that not everyone who's been exiled would be out for revenge though.
It is. I really like the Druid in 2x03. Damn I can't remember his name. I blame the fact he ended up getting shot.
I don't think I quite saw that, but it would kind of make sense, how he's steadily getting more evil without much of an explanation. (I suppose Voldemort is a good likeness?) I could see it though.
I only noticed on my last viewing, which must be the 10th time I;ve seen that episode. At some point i might find screencaps and do a post on it to try and articulate my thoughts but I did get a wee evil vibe off of him in that episode. Voledmort seems about right. I don't want to go into how I have issues with the fact Mordred seems to have powerful magic to rival Merlin's as there's a whole nother set of issues there.
I know, and I love him all the more for it. It goes beyond just an interest in how his character is going to play out - he really wants what is best for the series.
Me too. He clearly loves the show and as an actor he does go beyond what is expected in that regard. I love the way he understands Arthur and tries to play him as well as he can despite the writing. TPTB would do well to at least listen to him. He knows Arthur better than anyone.
Bradley is just that good! ^_^
he is! I love his bits on commentaries. He might say it's not interesting but it is his love just shines through.
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotJanuary 26 2010, 20:59:02 UTC
It could have been interesting to flip one interpretation - Arthur being brought up and fostered as a peasant and Guinievere being royal
That is actually something I would really have love to have seen! It could have been really amazing, and they could have played Excalibur into it and a whole host of other things! (I actually feel that it could possibly have been more 'realistic' or believable had Arthur been the peasant one. Wow you! I'd never thought out it like that before! I'm well impressed!!)
Which onthe one hand is good to make a different interpretation but on the other risks the difficulty with all these bits needing to work together.
That's exactly it. There's also the issue that they only take the bits that are relevant to their interests, and seem to ignore the effect that that has on THEIR overall plot (the introduction of the Lade of the Lake, Nimeuh, Lancelot, Excalibur) whereas in the rest of the legends, each of those things place an important role, and it's specific to whomever wrote it. Whereas with Merlin, its a mish-mash of ideas, but not necessary in any sort of order.
This is my future head canon. Arthur and Gwen love each other and have a good marriage but they know you can love more than one person at a time and come up with a solution that works for everyone.
I most definitely like your way of thinking. I don't think I would honestly accept anything else. Especially when it could all work out for everyone. :)
I really like the Druid in 2x03. Damn I can't remember his name. I blame the fact he ended up getting shot.
I liked him too. Lol, don't worry, it was only mentioned once in the show. His name's "Algain" and I only know that because I had to find out for my Morgana spiel. XD;
At some point i might find screencaps and do a post on it to try and articulate my thoughts
I hope you do - I'll definitely be interested if you do! (although it might take me awhile to get round to reading it, at my slack rate XD) But I also know what you mean about Mordred's power. I'm kind of 'wtfing' over it, but for now ... I'll try to reserve judgment.
I love the way he understands Arthur and tries to play him as well as he can despite the writing. TPTB would do well to at least listen to him. He knows Arthur better than anyone.
My thoughts exactly. I love hearing all the tidbits he puts into his performance as well, that he explains in the commentaries. He really does have his role absolutely figured out, and I think it would be to the TPTB's shame of they disregarded Bradley's opinions. Especially since the writers seem to be so determined to do it ... stupid, I would imagine Bradley's voice would be a lovely little reality check.
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockJanuary 26 2010, 22:15:16 UTC
(I actually feel that it could possibly have been more 'realistic' or believable had Arthur been the peasant one. Wow you! I'd never thought out it like that before! I'm well impressed!!)
That's how it is in some/most of the legends; Arthur being fostered out as an infant growing up not knowing he is Royal. Most notably mention in TH White's 'The Sword in the Stone' book (and therefore used by Disney) but it has been used by other writers. I think it started with Wade but I can't recall and I can't rememeber which interpretation Malory goes with....*checks wikipedia* yep Malory goes with the Arthur is fostered out version.
Guinevere is pretty much always the daughter of a lord/noble or more often a King (see how interesting this could be?). She doesn't really get mentioned much until the romance era (which also introduces Lancelot who never even appears in the early Welsh legends).
Despite the differences in their upbringing they are always noble together and aware of each other's nobility whrn they meet. I think. I recall several films where Guinevere is a Princess but none where she see Arthur as a peasant.
So yeah they could have flipped things around a lot more than they did with the simple (which they then complicated) Arthur = prince and Gwen = servant interpretation.
I do sense a fair bit of did not the research with the writers. All that I found in books and on the internet in about 10 minutes.
each of those things place an important role, and it's specific to whomever wrote it. Whereas with Merlin, its a mish-mash of ideas, but not necessary in any sort of order.
Yes. They don't even try and string them together. They made Nimueh seperate from the Lady of the Lake and then try a new way to introduce thr Lady of the Lake which has no basis in the legends at all (Bastest?! Plus Freya, lovely name and lovely girl but then they introduce a Vivian in the next episode and that is a name associated with the Lady in the Lake whereas freya just isn't...). They bring in Lancelot early which creates real problems for the way they want A/G to play out. They didn't do badly with Excalibur (it's ended up in a lake) but will they tackle the idea of a sword in a stone? (given Excalibur is not always the sword in the stone depending on the myth).
*breathes*
I most definitely like your way of thinking. I don't think I would honestly accept anything else. Especially when it could all work out for everyone. :)
Thank you. I think it could work very well indeed.
I liked him too. Lol, don't worry, it was only mentioned once in the show. His name's "Algain" and I only know that because I had to find out for my Morgana spiel. XD;
Thank you! Randomly the letters A and M seem to have been popular with character names this year.
Ooo a Morgana spiel?
I hope you do - I'll definitely be interested if you do!
I shall try and post somehting along those lines this weekend. I will probably need to rewatch that episode again, just to get my interpretation roght. I am tempted to say there's a manipulation of Morgana going on too...
But I also know what you mean about Mordred's power. I'm kind of 'wtfing' over it, but for now ... I'll try to reserve judgment.
It's very WTF and totally random. It has no basis at all in the legends either. Whuch might explain it. We'll see.
He really does have his role absolutely figured out, and I think it would be to the TPTB's shame of they disregarded Bradley's opinions. Especially since the writers seem to be so determined to do it ... stupid, I would imagine Bradley's voice would be a lovely little reality check.
I really don't think he gets enough credit (or gives himself enough credit) for his insights. He's a really intelligent actor and more than that he cares about the show as a fan. And yes Bradley's voice should be *nods*
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotJanuary 30 2010, 13:24:50 UTC
That's how it is in some/most of the legends; Arthur being fostered out as an infant growing up not knowing he is Royal.
Ahh yea, I remember that. I just didn't quite think of it in terms of *this* show, I guess. XD;
I definitely remember or have heard about Gwen always being of some royal or upper-class status. I'm pretty sure this is the first version that has cast her in the role of a servant. I still reserve complete judgement on this change though, because I've not seen/read much about Gwen from the old legends, and therefore am pretty much ignorant. (sorry! T_T;)
However, I totally understand your frustration at their researching skills. I am really interested to know if they do lots of research in their down time, or what the story is there.
They don't even try and string them together. They made Nimueh seperate from the Lady of the Lake and then try a new way to introduce thr Lady of the Lake which has no basis in the legends at all (Bastest?! Plus Freya, lovely name and lovely girl but then they introduce a Vivian in the next episode and that is a name associated with the Lady in the Lake...) They didn't do badly with Excalibur (it's ended up in a lake) but will they tackle the idea of a sword in a stone? (given Excalibur is not always the sword in the stone depending on the myth).
I do remember being very 'wtf' about the Bastet, because that's based in Egyptian mythology, not Welsh (surely?). And I very muc doubt anyone from rural England could have even the vaguest idea of what that is when they decided to curse her. So is that yet another plot hole? On the subject of Vivan: I think they just like taking random names from the legend's just to fuck with you. Like with Vivan and Owain and Geoffry. They don't really serve much to the overall plot, but hardcore Arthurian Legend fans will get a nod to those characters? (which I would take to be rather insulting - I wouldn't want a shout out to the various people in the legend, I would like some nice storyline involving them!)
Randomly the letters A and M seem to have been popular with character names this year.
OMG they really have! I just noticed that. XDDDDDD (I wonder if they're trying to tell us something, or if they just stick to the beginning of the Baby Name books when they're chosing names?)
And yea - the Morgana part of my rant for this post. ^^;;
I will also look at your journal sometime this weekend, in the hope that I might get it read ... before next week. xD *is terribly slack atm*
I really don't think he gets enough credit (or gives himself enough credit) for his insights. He's a really intelligent actor and more than that he cares about the show as a fan.
I completely agree. I kind of feel sorry for Bradley, because he seems to be the one taken for the joker of the class, and therefore everyone seems to ... I dunno, not take what he says seriously? Which is terrible, because as you said, he is really very intelligent and his insight into not only his character but the other's as well is amazing. It of course bleeds into his fanboy-tendancies, which is so nice. Take more of Bradley's words to heart Johnny!!
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockJanuary 30 2010, 14:37:12 UTC
Ahh yea, I remember that. I just didn't quite think of it in terms of *this* show, I guess. XD;
In some ways it's best not to think of the actual legends with this show.
I'm pretty sure this is the first version that has cast her in the role of a servant.
I think you are right.
I've not seen/read much about Gwen from the old legends, and therefore am pretty much ignorant. (sorry! T_T;)
From what I've read she comes off as a pretty noble woman in the legends. Noble as in the personality trait. She's a good wife and caring.
Although in the legends she would never run off with Lancelot after Arthur's death...
However, I totally understand your frustration at their researching skills. I am really interested to know if they do lots of research in their down time, or what the story is there.
I wonder of they do general research and that gives them ideas or they already know about some aspects of the legend (lady in the lake etc) and just decide to write them and maybe do a bit of research they don't use.
I do remember being very 'wtf' about the Bastet, because that's based in Egyptian mythology, not Welsh (surely?).
I was too. I mean Welsh mythology does have monsters etc. There was no need to decide - oh a Bastet that sounds cool let's go with that. They could have worked in a better mythological framework if they had bothered. And seriously if you lived in a rural area you might think...werewolf. I mean surely cursing someone to be a werewolf would be bad enough? Hardly needed to be a huge winged cat.
I think they just like taking random names from the legend's just to fuck with you.
I suspect youa re right. I don;t mind them using the names but it woukd be cool to actually see the named people in a good storyline.
OMG they really have! I just noticed that. XDDDDDD (I wonder if they're trying to tell us something, or if they just stick to the beginning of the Baby Name books when they're chosing names?)
Maybe their book doesn't have all the letters in it?
I wonder if they are making a 'theme'.
I will also look at your journal sometime this weekend, in the hope that I might get it read ... before next week. xD *is terribly slack atm*
Take your time. There be no rush. Have now posted my Mordred screencap thingy.
I kind of feel sorry for Bradley, because he seems to be the one taken for the joker of the class, and therefore everyone seems to ... I dunno, not take what he says seriously?
Me too. he does get painted as the joker, the daft one. And yes he can be a dork (video diaries a case in point) but he also has a really good understanding of the characters, the character relationships and what makes the show good. He also gives everyone their due credit where it is due. Very much a team player. Really they are lucky to have him. Yes Johnny really should.
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotJanuary 31 2010, 10:59:22 UTC
In some ways it's best not to think of the actual legends with this show.
Lol, I think you are right.
From what I've read she comes off as a pretty noble woman in the legends. Noble as in the personality trait. She's a good wife and caring. Although in the legends she would never run off with Lancelot after Arthur's death...
Yea, from what I've heard I could guess that. I think it definitely comes from her unwillingness to run off with Lancelot, but also that she is a Princess/Royal and I would expect it to be in her blood (I would expect it a thing taught from youth, but maybe I'm wrong? At least in the romanticised era, they thought so).
I wonder of they do general research and that gives them ideas or they already know about some aspects of the legend (lady in the lake etc) and just decide to write them and maybe do a bit of research they don't use.
Heh, I think the latter sounds more plausible, given what we have seen. Though they do know about random Ancient Times things (like the eyedrops in 2x07 were in fact a medieval cosmetic), so maybe they do research? But just decide to ignore what they find?
seriously if you lived in a rural area you might think...werewolf. I mean surely cursing someone to be a werewolf would be bad enough? Hardly needed to be a huge winged cat.
Actually, that's exactly what I thought Freya was - a werewolf. Because that has plenty of already established mythology AND it's a transformative-curse, so why did they decide to go with the Bastet? Very strange choice, if you ask me.
I don;t mind them using the names but it woukd be cool to actually see the named people in a good storyline.
Same. Though I think that bleeds into every other complaint we have about the show. ^^;
Maybe their book doesn't have all the letters in it? I wonder if they are making a 'theme'.
LOL I suspect they may indeed have a defective book. Though I could buy that maybe they want a theme. They probably think they're being really clever or something. *sigh*
Take your time. There be no rush. Have now posted my Mordred screencap thingy.
Haha, awesome. :D I'll check them out as soon as I can! :)
he does get painted as the joker, the daft one. And yes he can be a dork (video diaries a case in point) but he also has a really good understanding of the characters, the character relationships and what makes the show good. He also gives everyone their due credit where it is due. Very much a team player. Really they are lucky to have him.
They are SO lucky to have him. I hope they appreciate this. He is so far from the daft one that its not funny - he just loves to have a laugh. It's what makes him so beloved throughout the fandom.
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockJanuary 31 2010, 14:50:02 UTC
Lol, I think you are right.
Seems safer that way.
I think it definitely comes from her unwillingness to run off with Lancelot, but also that she is a Princess/Royal and I would expect it to be in her blood (I would expect it a thing taught from youth, but maybe I'm wrong? At least in the romanticised era, they thought so).
I think you are right. I think as a noble woman she would have had that sort of education. Maybe that's why we can see servant Gwen going off with Lancelot after Arthur dies because she doesn;t have the noble background?
Though they do know about random Ancient Times things (like the eyedrops in 2x07 were in fact a medieval cosmetic), so maybe they do research? But just decide to ignore what they find?
Could be. They might do the research and then think - actually let's not bother with this but do it this way. You knwo to be original. I was listening to the commentary for 1x01 which is Julian and Johnny and they were emphaising Merlin is a fantasy world (they were very big on talkingabout their world building) and therefore didn't have to be historically accurate as there weren't real things like magic and talking dragons so why should they worry about totmatoes and things.
So they don't seem to worry about stuff like that.
Actually, that's exactly what I thought Freya was - a werewolf.
Me too! It would have worked fine and fitted into the story as well as being a wee bit more believable. For starters we wouldn't be worrying about why Freya didn't just fly off.
Same. Though I think that bleeds into every other complaint we have about the show. ^^;
Yes this is true.
LOL I suspect they may indeed have a defective book.
Me too. Though it wouldn't surprise me if they were just being clever.
They are SO lucky to have him. I hope they appreciate this. He is so far from the daft one that its not funny - he just loves to have a laugh. It's what makes him so beloved throughout the fandom.
I think they do realise judging by the 1x01 commentary. As it turned out they knew Bradley from the pilot they did (Dis/connected) and actualyl had him in mind to play Arthur from the start. He was the only actor they thought of before the character apparently. And they did constantly mention his comedic ability.
Although I thin Bradley is equally good at the drama side of things. And yes he is beloved throughout fandom for good reason.
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotFebruary 2 2010, 06:58:52 UTC
think as a noble woman she would have had that sort of education. Maybe that's why we can see servant Gwen going off with Lancelot after Arthur dies because she doesn;t have the noble background?
That's definitely something that could be a factor. After all, noble women wouldn't really have known another way to act. However, a servant, who does not have that sort of education, cannot be relied upon to react accordingly. Nice insight there!
I was listening to the commentary for 1x01 which is Julian and Johnny and they were emphaising Merlin is a fantasy world (they were very big on talkingabout their world building) and therefore didn't have to be historically accurate as there weren't real things like magic and talking dragons so why should they worry about totmatoes and things.
God, you have no idea how much it annoys me that they call it "world building" when it's such a crap excuse. The only reason they've jumped on that now is because they got complaints about all the non-accuracy of the show, and of course if you say that it's a "fantasy world" then you can be as inaccurate about archictecture/dress/customs/etc and just put it under the guise of "oh well it doesn't matter, because Merlin isn't set in any particular time in history". *rolls eyes*
Besides, their "world building" is substandard to say the least. If taking ideas from every single thing to ever come before counts as 'creative license' then I suppose so. But then again, I never believe the best of Capps, because I think he's a little too full of himself. *fickle* XD
Though it wouldn't surprise me if they were just being clever.
They have been known to do so on occasion. So maybe they are being clever.
As it turned out they knew Bradley from the pilot they did (Dis/connected) and actualyl had him in mind to play Arthur from the start. He was the only actor they thought of before the character apparently. And they did constantly mention his comedic ability.
Yea, I had heard that Capps worked with Bradley to do Dis/connected. That's kind of awesome really. I'm so glad that they did get Bradley - he really is a comic genius. And also he's a great actor! I'm glad they remembered him. :)
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockFebruary 2 2010, 22:16:34 UTC
That's definitely something that could be a factor.
I think so. It's about the only way I can really justify the way they've written Gwen/Lancelot to be the ultimate true love pairing. In that I now expect them to end up together eventually.
God, you have no idea how much it annoys me that they call it "world building" when it's such a crap excuse.
They aren't actually building a world either, just taking parts from different things and putting them into a mix. I like the fantasy aspect but it shouldn;t be an excuse.
I mean techncially historical Arthue was set on the Dark Ages and you would never have a castle like Pierrefonds in the Dark Ages (you probably wouldn't get a castle like that in medieval times but that's another rant). So I get that they don't want to go down that historically accurate route but to then dismiss everything else seems a bit...arrogant.
Oh it's fantasy we don't have to worry about it. The beauty of fantasy is making it seem almost real. Sometimes they don't do that.
I think it's interesting in the commentary for 2x01 Bradley and Colin talk about the jacket Bradley wears as 'the Thriller jacket' which was taken off Bradley as TPTB thought it was 'too modern' but s Bradley points out he's also seen wearing chaps and a belt 'with a cartoon dragon on it' and apparently this doesn't bother TPTB. So they really do lack consistency with this stuff.
I never believe the best of Capps, because I think he's a little too full of himself.
Yeah same here. I get that vibe.
They have been known to do so on occasion. So maybe they are being clever.
Could be. Could be.
I'm so glad that they did get Bradley - he really is a comic genius. And also he's a great actor! I'm glad they remembered him. :)
Me too. And I am so glad Dis/connected never got a full series as then we'd never have had Merlin (with Bradley).
Re: Reply Part 1foxie_trotFebruary 6 2010, 14:35:07 UTC
In that I now expect them to end up together eventually.
I almost hope that they do. They're obviously better suited for each other, in this version.
So I get that they don't want to go down that historically accurate route but to then dismiss everything else seems a bit...arrogant.
It is arrogant. They claim to want to do right by what they are doing, but by blatantly ignoring anachronisms (and then boasting about doing so!) seems like their way of saying "we don't care that you may be intelligent enough to pick this up. We're still doing it this way". Same with their mashing of the legends. You can't just dismiss things that happened in history for the sake of "building a fantasy world". If its going to be based on something real-world-based, then you can't just say that our anachronism concerns and consistencies don't count. Because they do.
I am so glad Dis/connected never got a full series as then we'd never have had Merlin (with Bradley).
I was under the impression that it did? And that Bradley just wasn't in the rest of the cast? IDK, but I am definitely glad that Bradley wasn't there, and so we could have him in Merlin. :DD
Re: Reply Part 1a8c_sockFebruary 10 2010, 08:51:12 UTC
I almost hope that they do. They're obviously better suited for each other, in this version.
They are it is obvious. Even Bradley thinks this (but then he's not an A/G shipper at all. The entire commentary of 2x10 and I think he barely mentioned it. He was much more interested in talking about the Vivian storyline, the kiss with Vivian, how his mother was on set and of course mentions of Colin.).
Same with their mashing of the legends. You can't just dismiss things that happened in history for the sake of "building a fantasy world". If its going to be based on something real-world-based, then you can't just say that our anachronism concerns and consistencies don't count. Because they do.
*nods* It's a huge contradictory mess in terms of setting. It should have some historical basis as that's what the legends had. Totally made up history in most ways ut still.
I was under the impression that it did? And that Bradley just wasn't in the rest of the cast? IDK, but I am definitely glad that Bradley wasn't there, and so we could have him in Merlin. :DD
I went and looked it up. It was a one-off drama it seems. Although I have heard Johnny refer to it being a pilot (he mentions Holiday Granger and Caroline who plays Hunith as having worked on a pilot with them).
It was delayed with tranmission as the theme of teen suicide was very much in the news at the time.
You have such a point here. I think stoicana made such a great point in a review post some time ago, that likening Arthur/Gwen romance to Romeo/Juliet tragic love is actually insulting the age old love between Arthur and Gwen. Because Romeo and Juliet were entirely too foolish in their so called 'great love', whereas the legends have always shown Gwen and Arthur to be true to each other (despite the hiccup with Lancelot) and Arthur is always portrayed to be this great man of honour. They are nothing like Romeo and Juliet, and I wish people would stop comparing and associating the two, especially for this Arthurian adaptation. It does not make the romance anymore believable nor commpelling. As you said, I want to see the ARTHRUIAN legend's dynamic romance.
[definitely agree with you on the Lancelot/Gwen angle too. What was up with that showing up so soon again??]
Whereas Arthur and Gwen have a whole boatload of issues to deal with.
This cannot go without saying! It's rather interesting, don't you think, that it's meant to be Arthur/Gwen in the end, and yet for this show, Gwen and Lancelot are so much better suited for one another, than Arthur and Gwen are? I also agree with you on Gwen being a realist - I think that's why she takes more of a fancy to Lancelot as well. She knows she has a chance with him, whereas Arthur [for all she knows] he could just be playing games with her.
but I can't understand how she will be an enemy of Arthur and his Camelot.
At the moment that can be said for most of the shows villains. I mean, none of them actually have much of a personal problem with Arthur - it's Uther that they all hate (Arthur by extension, because he is his son and carries out his orders). And then Mordred and Morgana only really have a reason to hate Merlin after all he's done to them - but not Arthur. So how is this going to work in the future??
I made up reasons in my head for their regression
So did I
But I agree, things got much better between them later on in the season. Especially when Arthur seems to want to help Merlin but without quite knowing how because even though he possibly is going though some inner conflict about having 'servant friends' [see 2x03 as well as 2x13], he does care for Merlin and isn't afraid to show it.
I do think season 3 *needs* the magical reveal between them because it is getting beyond a joke now that Arthur doesn't seem to have a clue.
This, so damn hard. I can't even believe that they would let it go on for so long. I mean, it's destroying Arthur as a character, making him out to be this complete idiot. Though I really hope when they do have the reveal, that Arthur won't brush it aside and go back to trusting him within an episode, all because of some plot convenience they write in. THAT is possibly the only thing worse I can think of.
So lets just both hope that they have heard Bradley in his wisdom, and are going to go for that kind of reveal. Because I expect it will be just the thing to get the show back on track! ^-^
Reply
It is, absolutely. They are two totally different romances with their own unique dynamic. Sometimes I think Johnny Capps assumes all romances are the same when they are not. Arthur/Guinevere was a much more mature love than Romeo and Juliet. It was more 'adult'. Which is possibly why I can't buy the excuse that A/G has flown by so quick 'becuase they are young'. To me it needs to be more than that for me to buy into it. It needs to be have something more to it than 'young people in love'.
[definitely agree with you on the Lancelot/Gwen angle too. What was up with that showing up so soon again??]
I'm waiting for Lancelot to show up in S3 and for that to be a bit wtf? Another thing that is bothering me. Arthur knows Lancelot loves Gwen and that it is mutal. Yet Lancelot is fated to be a trusted knight. How is that going to work now?
It's rather interesting, don't you think, that it's meant to be Arthur/Gwen in the end, and yet for this show, Gwen and Lancelot are so much better suited for one another, than Arthur and Gwen are?
Yes I do. I don't know if they have deliberately written it that way (I am betting not) but you are right that that is the way is looks. I mean I wouldn't blame Gwen at all for going off with Lancelot as they are a better fit. Perhaps that was the thinking behind it? But then I might be giving them too much credit. Of course Gwen does go back to Arthur in the end of the legends yet with this version I could see her going off with Lancelot and just never coming back.
She knows she has a chance with him, whereas Arthur [for all she knows] he could just be playing games with her.
Yes. This. And she knows the obstacles that are there between them.
At the moment that can be said for most of the shows villains. I mean, none of them actually have much of a personal problem with Arthur - it's Uther that they all hate
Yes. Poor Arthur really just inheriting the villians simply because he is Uther's son.
So how is this going to work in the future??
A very good question. I can;t recall who I was discussing it with but someone mentioned that it is Merlin who is creating 'team Camelot' and not Arthur. It's he who is forging the lines between Camelot and people like Mordred and Morgana and not Arthur. So, as you say, how is going to work with Mordred and Morgana turning against Camelot? Is that going to be the result of Merlin's actions?
But I agree, things got much better between them later on in the season. Especially when Arthur seems to want to help Merlin
I was relieved to see them back to their normal selves *pets the boys* I think it's interesting Arthur knows they have this bond but unlike Merlin he doesn;t know why. He just goes with it.
I can't even believe that they would let it go on for so long. I mean, it's destroying Arthur as a character, making him out to be this complete idiot.
It does Arthur such a disservice on all levels it really does. Surely they must realise this?
So lets just both hope that they have heard Bradley in his wisdom, and are going to go for that kind of reveal. Because I expect it will be just the thing to get the show back on track! ^-^
I do too! They really should listen to Bradley he really has some excellent thoughts on the show. He speaks for the fans too as so mich of what he says is what we want to see.
Reply
Oh my gosh, yes. And I think also, that 'young people in love' cannot portray the extent for which Gwen remorses after Arthur is killed. I mean, you would expect that, after she is with Lancelot and betrays Arthur and then dies as a result, that THIS Gwen would actually go off and be happy with Lancelot. Because that's the clear imagine we've been given. But that's not how it goes in the Legends, and likening it to anything else is just doing it a huge disservice. [In one of them, she goes off to a nunnery after all, right? Somehow can't quite imagine this Gwen being mature enough to cart herself off to a life of celibacy and penance).
I'm waiting for Lancelot to show up in S3 and for that to be a bit wtf? ... Arthur knows Lancelot loves Gwen and that it is mutal. Yet Lancelot is fated to be a trusted knight.
That is going to be so weird. I don't even know how they could possibly make that work, seeing as how Gwen cannot resist Lancelot when he is around, and yet Lancelot has to come back if he is to be made one of the Knights of the Round Table. So is this going to be another episode where Gwen and Lancelot are all "I will love you forever, no matter what!" or something else? Because as you said, Arthur knows about Lancelot now, and yet. What are they going to do with it, I wonder?
I wouldn't blame Gwen at all for going off with Lancelot as they are a better fit.
(I wouldn't blame her either. He is "everything that is right in this world" whereas Arthur is a right bastard. I know how I would definitely chose!)
Gwen does go back to Arthur in the end of the legends yet with this version I could see her going off with Lancelot and just never coming back.
*nods* I think thats what I was trying to articulate earlier. It honestly wouldn't surprise me (as vindictive as it sounds) that once Arthur dies, Gwen and Lancelot would be half-saddened and half-elated, because now the one obstacle to their romance is out of the way. Which is a terrible thought, but that's how I feel.
So, as you say, how is going to work with Mordred and Morgana turning against Camelot? Is that going to be the result of Merlin's actions?
I will be interested to see how the writers handle this. I just pray that it won't be something stupid, like Arthur just suddenly [accidentally, of course] kills a random Druid, who happens to be leader of the 'peaceful' clan, and they all get up in arms and storm the castle. Because that would be rather lame. [and entirely predictable].
Arthur knows they have this bond but unlike Merlin he doesn;t know why. He just goes with it.
Yes!! And I think that (more than anything else we've seen this season) is the one thing that shows that Arthur is not so much of an arrogant, self centred, pompous Prince. That he does actually care about other people, and he might actually turn out to be this great King of Camelot.
Surely they must realise this?
Phtt, clearly not. I think they've seen too many episodes of *insert genric 90's kid's show here* where they can drag out the plot by never having the main character figure out the secret everyone else knows.
He speaks for the fans too as so mich of what he says is what we want to see.
Oh my god yes. It's crazy actually, how much he seems to be on a wavelength with us (and he's also there, trying to justify the fuckery of the beginning of S2, just like we are. XDD;)
Reply
Exactly! And that reflects badly on Gwen and Lancelot but that is the way it is written. The point of Arthur/Guinevere is that in the end she chooses that love over Lancelot. She wasn't buried with Lancelot! And yes I can't see Gwen going off to a nunnery. I picture her and Lancelot crying over Arthur's funeral then going off somewhere. Which is really not how the legend goes.
I don't even know how they could possibly make that work, seeing as how Gwen cannot resist Lancelot when he is around, and yet Lancelot has to come back if he is to be made one of the Knights of the Round Table.
Me either. Unless Arthur and Gwen end up in an open marriage loving other people nad Arthur and Merlin are together (forever) whilst she and Lancelot sleep together and everybody knows and understands.. There are just too many obstacles in the way. Arthur is not going ot be niave enough to think Gwen will be entirely faithful when old flame Lancelot is *right there*. How on earth they are going to write it I have no clue.
And whilst I am pondering...It's pretty clear that Gwen falls for Lancelot from the off before we've had any indication of her liking Arthur romantically (possibly we get the impression she admires him from afar but that's about as far as it might go). So again it's set up in a way that it is Lancelot who should be her true love.
(I wouldn't blame her either. He is "everything that is right in this world" whereas Arthur is a right bastard. I know how I would definitely chose!)
Same here.
Which is a terrible thought, but that's how I feel.
I feel the same way. That's how it has been presented all the way through. First Lancelot's absence was an issue but then when that is gone it will be Arthur who is the issue.
. I just pray that it won't be something stupid, like Arthur just suddenly [accidentally, of course] kills a random Druid, who happens to be leader of the 'peaceful' clan, and they all get up in arms and storm the castle. Because that would be rather lame. [and entirely predictable].
I sense sadly predictablr will be the way it goes. It's interesting that the Druids as a whole are set up as a peaceful loving innocent people. Yet evil Mordred (and I am convinced he's being set up as being 'born' evil. I was rewatching 1x08 last night and I had nto realised before but he is clearly manipulating Merlin at the end with his cries for help. The smug and slightly scary look on his face when Merlin appears made me think that) is a Druid. So you have to wonder about that.
That he does actually care about other people, and he might actually turn out to be this great King of Camelot.
In the second half of the season he did show moments of maturity that did reflect the fact he was a future king.
Phtt, clearly not. I think they've seen too many episodes of *insert genric 90's kid's show here* where they can drag out the plot by never having the main character figure out the secret everyone else knows.
I suspect you are correct.
Oh my god yes. It's crazy actually, how much he seems to be on a wavelength with us (and he's also there, trying to justify the fuckery of the beginning of S2, just like we are. XDD;)
He is. About so many things. And he will talk about it too. He's clearly a fanboy himself hee. But sadly TPTB don't seem to listen to him. I mean in the commentary for 2x04 he was able to really articulate the nuances of the different relationships and I was impressed that he mentioned Lancelot being a handbrake on the A/G relationship because that is how it should have played out given the events of 2x04 but I don't think the writing really showed that.
Reply
And that is the sad thing about this portrayal. Because so many young people that have NO IDEA about how the Arthurian legend actually plays out, they only know bits and pieces (i.e., that Gwen and Lancelot have an affair), but nothing about how precious the love between Gwen and Arthur is. So the fact that they are completely ignorant and watching Merlin, is it any wonder that they are interpreting things all wrong?
So again it's set up in a way that it is Lancelot who should be her true love.
Which makes me wonder if the writers really are looking at the legend's properly. I mean, I understand that they're trying to "shake things up a bit" with introducing Lancelot so early on. But giving Gwen and Lancelot that connection at the same time really undermines ANYTHING that they could possibly want to pursue for Arthur/Gwen. I will be interested to see where they go with this, but I just hope that they do it justice. (However I am completely on board this idea of Arthur/Gwen being open marriage and Merlin and Lancelot joining in 8D)
First Lancelot's absence was an issue but then when that is gone it will be Arthur who is the issue.
OMG WORD. Seriously, that hits it right on the head. *nodnod*
It's interesting that the Druids as a whole are set up as a peaceful loving innocent people.
I kind of like it, even though it's kind of obvious what they're doing either it (i.e., making Uther out to be an even bigger bastard). It's nice to think that not everyone who's been exiled would be out for revenge though.
I am convinced he's being set up as being 'born' evil. I was rewatching 1x08 last night and I had nto realised before but he is clearly manipulating Merlin at the end with his cries for help.
I think it is, if you say that he was actually quite manipulative in the first season. I don't think I quite saw that, but it would kind of make sense, how he's steadily getting more evil without much of an explanation. (I suppose Voldemort is a good likeness?) I could see it though.
He's clearly a fanboy himself hee. But sadly TPTB don't seem to listen to him.
I know, and I love him all the more for it. It goes beyond just an interest in how his character is going to play out - he really wants what is best for the series. It's sad that TPTB don't take much notice of him - they should. I mean, he's the one at the front of the line, getting all this feedback from fans. AND he's the one that has Arthur's character all figured out, when clearly the producers and writers don't.
I was impressed that he mentioned Lancelot being a handbrake on the A/G relationship because that is how it should have played out given the events of 2x04 but I don't think the writing really showed that.
Bradley is just that good! ^_^
Reply
Yes. I do hope it will inspire them to go back and read up on it, might get them interested, and they they would know but I doubt it. The love between Arthur and Gwen is so important and yet watching this portrayal, depsite the efforts of Johnny Capps, it just isn't coming through. It could have been interesting to flip one interpretation - Arthur being brought up and fostered as a peasant and Guinievere being royal - around but they have chosen to complicate it with all kinds of other things.
But giving Gwen and Lancelot that connection at the same time really undermines ANYTHING that they could possibly want to pursue for Arthur/Gwen
THIS x100. That is the biggest issue with A/G. I mean there are others but Lancelot is the biggest to my mind.
I think part of it is that they are picking bits out of lots of different legends. They seem to mostly draw on Geoffry of Monmouth for some bits and then switch to Mallory for others with the odd bit picked out from other Arthurian writers. Which onthe one hand is good to make a different interpretation but on the other risks the difficulty with all these bits needing to work together.
(However I am completely on board this idea of Arthur/Gwen being open marriage and Merlin and Lancelot joining in 8D)
This is my future head canon. Arthur and Gwen love each other and have a good marriage but they know you can love more than one person at a time and come up with a solution that works for everyone.
It's nice to think that not everyone who's been exiled would be out for revenge though.
It is. I really like the Druid in 2x03. Damn I can't remember his name. I blame the fact he ended up getting shot.
I don't think I quite saw that, but it would kind of make sense, how he's steadily getting more evil without much of an explanation. (I suppose Voldemort is a good likeness?) I could see it though.
I only noticed on my last viewing, which must be the 10th time I;ve seen that episode. At some point i might find screencaps and do a post on it to try and articulate my thoughts but I did get a wee evil vibe off of him in that episode. Voledmort seems about right. I don't want to go into how I have issues with the fact Mordred seems to have powerful magic to rival Merlin's as there's a whole nother set of issues there.
I know, and I love him all the more for it. It goes beyond just an interest in how his character is going to play out - he really wants what is best for the series.
Me too. He clearly loves the show and as an actor he does go beyond what is expected in that regard. I love the way he understands Arthur and tries to play him as well as he can despite the writing. TPTB would do well to at least listen to him. He knows Arthur better than anyone.
Bradley is just that good! ^_^
he is! I love his bits on commentaries. He might say it's not interesting but it is his love just shines through.
Reply
That is actually something I would really have love to have seen! It could have been really amazing, and they could have played Excalibur into it and a whole host of other things! (I actually feel that it could possibly have been more 'realistic' or believable had Arthur been the peasant one. Wow you! I'd never thought out it like that before! I'm well impressed!!)
Which onthe one hand is good to make a different interpretation but on the other risks the difficulty with all these bits needing to work together.
That's exactly it. There's also the issue that they only take the bits that are relevant to their interests, and seem to ignore the effect that that has on THEIR overall plot (the introduction of the Lade of the Lake, Nimeuh, Lancelot, Excalibur) whereas in the rest of the legends, each of those things place an important role, and it's specific to whomever wrote it. Whereas with Merlin, its a mish-mash of ideas, but not necessary in any sort of order.
This is my future head canon. Arthur and Gwen love each other and have a good marriage but they know you can love more than one person at a time and come up with a solution that works for everyone.
I most definitely like your way of thinking. I don't think I would honestly accept anything else. Especially when it could all work out for everyone. :)
I really like the Druid in 2x03. Damn I can't remember his name. I blame the fact he ended up getting shot.
I liked him too. Lol, don't worry, it was only mentioned once in the show. His name's "Algain" and I only know that because I had to find out for my Morgana spiel. XD;
At some point i might find screencaps and do a post on it to try and articulate my thoughts
I hope you do - I'll definitely be interested if you do! (although it might take me awhile to get round to reading it, at my slack rate XD) But I also know what you mean about Mordred's power. I'm kind of 'wtfing' over it, but for now ... I'll try to reserve judgment.
I love the way he understands Arthur and tries to play him as well as he can despite the writing. TPTB would do well to at least listen to him. He knows Arthur better than anyone.
My thoughts exactly. I love hearing all the tidbits he puts into his performance as well, that he explains in the commentaries. He really does have his role absolutely figured out, and I think it would be to the TPTB's shame of they disregarded Bradley's opinions. Especially since the writers seem to be so determined to do it ... stupid, I would imagine Bradley's voice would be a lovely little reality check.
Reply
That's how it is in some/most of the legends; Arthur being fostered out as an infant growing up not knowing he is Royal. Most notably mention in TH White's 'The Sword in the Stone' book (and therefore used by Disney) but it has been used by other writers. I think it started with Wade but I can't recall and I can't rememeber which interpretation Malory goes with....*checks wikipedia* yep Malory goes with the Arthur is fostered out version.
Guinevere is pretty much always the daughter of a lord/noble or more often a King (see how interesting this could be?). She doesn't really get mentioned much until the romance era (which also introduces Lancelot who never even appears in the early Welsh legends).
Despite the differences in their upbringing they are always noble together and aware of each other's nobility whrn they meet. I think. I recall several films where Guinevere is a Princess but none where she see Arthur as a peasant.
So yeah they could have flipped things around a lot more than they did with the simple (which they then complicated) Arthur = prince and Gwen = servant interpretation.
I do sense a fair bit of did not the research with the writers. All that I found in books and on the internet in about 10 minutes.
each of those things place an important role, and it's specific to whomever wrote it. Whereas with Merlin, its a mish-mash of ideas, but not necessary in any sort of order.
Yes. They don't even try and string them together. They made Nimueh seperate from the Lady of the Lake and then try a new way to introduce thr Lady of the Lake which has no basis in the legends at all (Bastest?! Plus Freya, lovely name and lovely girl but then they introduce a Vivian in the next episode and that is a name associated with the Lady in the Lake whereas freya just isn't...). They bring in Lancelot early which creates real problems for the way they want A/G to play out. They didn't do badly with Excalibur (it's ended up in a lake) but will they tackle the idea of a sword in a stone? (given Excalibur is not always the sword in the stone depending on the myth).
*breathes*
I most definitely like your way of thinking. I don't think I would honestly accept anything else. Especially when it could all work out for everyone. :)
Thank you. I think it could work very well indeed.
I liked him too. Lol, don't worry, it was only mentioned once in the show. His name's "Algain" and I only know that because I had to find out for my Morgana spiel. XD;
Thank you! Randomly the letters A and M seem to have been popular with character names this year.
Ooo a Morgana spiel?
I hope you do - I'll definitely be interested if you do!
I shall try and post somehting along those lines this weekend. I will probably need to rewatch that episode again, just to get my interpretation roght. I am tempted to say there's a manipulation of Morgana going on too...
But I also know what you mean about Mordred's power. I'm kind of 'wtfing' over it, but for now ... I'll try to reserve judgment.
It's very WTF and totally random. It has no basis at all in the legends either. Whuch might explain it. We'll see.
He really does have his role absolutely figured out, and I think it would be to the TPTB's shame of they disregarded Bradley's opinions. Especially since the writers seem to be so determined to do it ... stupid, I would imagine Bradley's voice would be a lovely little reality check.
I really don't think he gets enough credit (or gives himself enough credit) for his insights. He's a really intelligent actor and more than that he cares about the show as a fan. And yes Bradley's voice should be *nods*
Reply
Ahh yea, I remember that. I just didn't quite think of it in terms of *this* show, I guess. XD;
I definitely remember or have heard about Gwen always being of some royal or upper-class status. I'm pretty sure this is the first version that has cast her in the role of a servant. I still reserve complete judgement on this change though, because I've not seen/read much about Gwen from the old legends, and therefore am pretty much ignorant. (sorry! T_T;)
However, I totally understand your frustration at their researching skills. I am really interested to know if they do lots of research in their down time, or what the story is there.
They don't even try and string them together. They made Nimueh seperate from the Lady of the Lake and then try a new way to introduce thr Lady of the Lake which has no basis in the legends at all (Bastest?! Plus Freya, lovely name and lovely girl but then they introduce a Vivian in the next episode and that is a name associated with the Lady in the Lake...) They didn't do badly with Excalibur (it's ended up in a lake) but will they tackle the idea of a sword in a stone? (given Excalibur is not always the sword in the stone depending on the myth).
I do remember being very 'wtf' about the Bastet, because that's based in Egyptian mythology, not Welsh (surely?). And I very muc doubt anyone from rural England could have even the vaguest idea of what that is when they decided to curse her. So is that yet another plot hole?
On the subject of Vivan: I think they just like taking random names from the legend's just to fuck with you. Like with Vivan and Owain and Geoffry. They don't really serve much to the overall plot, but hardcore Arthurian Legend fans will get a nod to those characters? (which I would take to be rather insulting - I wouldn't want a shout out to the various people in the legend, I would like some nice storyline involving them!)
Randomly the letters A and M seem to have been popular with character names this year.
OMG they really have! I just noticed that. XDDDDDD (I wonder if they're trying to tell us something, or if they just stick to the beginning of the Baby Name books when they're chosing names?)
And yea - the Morgana part of my rant for this post. ^^;;
I will also look at your journal sometime this weekend, in the hope that I might get it read ... before next week. xD *is terribly slack atm*
I really don't think he gets enough credit (or gives himself enough credit) for his insights. He's a really intelligent actor and more than that he cares about the show as a fan.
I completely agree. I kind of feel sorry for Bradley, because he seems to be the one taken for the joker of the class, and therefore everyone seems to ... I dunno, not take what he says seriously? Which is terrible, because as you said, he is really very intelligent and his insight into not only his character but the other's as well is amazing. It of course bleeds into his fanboy-tendancies, which is so nice. Take more of Bradley's words to heart Johnny!!
Reply
In some ways it's best not to think of the actual legends with this show.
I'm pretty sure this is the first version that has cast her in the role of a servant.
I think you are right.
I've not seen/read much about Gwen from the old legends, and therefore am pretty much ignorant. (sorry! T_T;)
From what I've read she comes off as a pretty noble woman in the legends. Noble as in the personality trait. She's a good wife and caring.
Although in the legends she would never run off with Lancelot after Arthur's death...
However, I totally understand your frustration at their researching skills. I am really interested to know if they do lots of research in their down time, or what the story is there.
I wonder of they do general research and that gives them ideas or they already know about some aspects of the legend (lady in the lake etc) and just decide to write them and maybe do a bit of research they don't use.
I do remember being very 'wtf' about the Bastet, because that's based in Egyptian mythology, not Welsh (surely?).
I was too. I mean Welsh mythology does have monsters etc. There was no need to decide - oh a Bastet that sounds cool let's go with that. They could have worked in a better mythological framework if they had bothered. And seriously if you lived in a rural area you might think...werewolf. I mean surely cursing someone to be a werewolf would be bad enough? Hardly needed to be a huge winged cat.
I think they just like taking random names from the legend's just to fuck with you.
I suspect youa re right. I don;t mind them using the names but it woukd be cool to actually see the named people in a good storyline.
OMG they really have! I just noticed that. XDDDDDD (I wonder if they're trying to tell us something, or if they just stick to the beginning of the Baby Name books when they're chosing names?)
Maybe their book doesn't have all the letters in it?
I wonder if they are making a 'theme'.
I will also look at your journal sometime this weekend, in the hope that I might get it read ... before next week. xD *is terribly slack atm*
Take your time. There be no rush. Have now posted my Mordred screencap thingy.
I kind of feel sorry for Bradley, because he seems to be the one taken for the joker of the class, and therefore everyone seems to ... I dunno, not take what he says seriously?
Me too. he does get painted as the joker, the daft one. And yes he can be a dork (video diaries a case in point) but he also has a really good understanding of the characters, the character relationships and what makes the show good. He also gives everyone their due credit where it is due. Very much a team player. Really they are lucky to have him. Yes Johnny really should.
Reply
Lol, I think you are right.
From what I've read she comes off as a pretty noble woman in the legends. Noble as in the personality trait. She's a good wife and caring. Although in the legends she would never run off with Lancelot after Arthur's death...
Yea, from what I've heard I could guess that. I think it definitely comes from her unwillingness to run off with Lancelot, but also that she is a Princess/Royal and I would expect it to be in her blood (I would expect it a thing taught from youth, but maybe I'm wrong? At least in the romanticised era, they thought so).
I wonder of they do general research and that gives them ideas or they already know about some aspects of the legend (lady in the lake etc) and just decide to write them and maybe do a bit of research they don't use.
Heh, I think the latter sounds more plausible, given what we have seen. Though they do know about random Ancient Times things (like the eyedrops in 2x07 were in fact a medieval cosmetic), so maybe they do research? But just decide to ignore what they find?
seriously if you lived in a rural area you might think...werewolf. I mean surely cursing someone to be a werewolf would be bad enough? Hardly needed to be a huge winged cat.
Actually, that's exactly what I thought Freya was - a werewolf. Because that has plenty of already established mythology AND it's a transformative-curse, so why did they decide to go with the Bastet? Very strange choice, if you ask me.
I don;t mind them using the names but it woukd be cool to actually see the named people in a good storyline.
Same. Though I think that bleeds into every other complaint we have about the show. ^^;
Maybe their book doesn't have all the letters in it? I wonder if they are making a 'theme'.
LOL I suspect they may indeed have a defective book.
Though I could buy that maybe they want a theme. They probably think they're being really clever or something. *sigh*
Take your time. There be no rush. Have now posted my Mordred screencap thingy.
Haha, awesome. :D I'll check them out as soon as I can! :)
he does get painted as the joker, the daft one. And yes he can be a dork (video diaries a case in point) but he also has a really good understanding of the characters, the character relationships and what makes the show good. He also gives everyone their due credit where it is due. Very much a team player. Really they are lucky to have him.
They are SO lucky to have him. I hope they appreciate this. He is so far from the daft one that its not funny - he just loves to have a laugh. It's what makes him so beloved throughout the fandom.
Reply
Seems safer that way.
I think it definitely comes from her unwillingness to run off with Lancelot, but also that she is a Princess/Royal and I would expect it to be in her blood (I would expect it a thing taught from youth, but maybe I'm wrong? At least in the romanticised era, they thought so).
I think you are right. I think as a noble woman she would have had that sort of education. Maybe that's why we can see servant Gwen going off with Lancelot after Arthur dies because she doesn;t have the noble background?
Though they do know about random Ancient Times things (like the eyedrops in 2x07 were in fact a medieval cosmetic), so maybe they do research? But just decide to ignore what they find?
Could be. They might do the research and then think - actually let's not bother with this but do it this way. You knwo to be original. I was listening to the commentary for 1x01 which is Julian and Johnny and they were emphaising Merlin is a fantasy world (they were very big on talkingabout their world building) and therefore didn't have to be historically accurate as there weren't real things like magic and talking dragons so why should they worry about totmatoes and things.
So they don't seem to worry about stuff like that.
Actually, that's exactly what I thought Freya was - a werewolf.
Me too! It would have worked fine and fitted into the story as well as being a wee bit more believable. For starters we wouldn't be worrying about why Freya didn't just fly off.
Same. Though I think that bleeds into every other complaint we have about the show. ^^;
Yes this is true.
LOL I suspect they may indeed have a defective book.
Me too. Though it wouldn't surprise me if they were just being clever.
They are SO lucky to have him. I hope they appreciate this. He is so far from the daft one that its not funny - he just loves to have a laugh. It's what makes him so beloved throughout the fandom.
I think they do realise judging by the 1x01 commentary. As it turned out they knew Bradley from the pilot they did (Dis/connected) and actualyl had him in mind to play Arthur from the start. He was the only actor they thought of before the character apparently. And they did constantly mention his comedic ability.
Although I thin Bradley is equally good at the drama side of things. And yes he is beloved throughout fandom for good reason.
Reply
That's definitely something that could be a factor. After all, noble women wouldn't really have known another way to act. However, a servant, who does not have that sort of education, cannot be relied upon to react accordingly. Nice insight there!
I was listening to the commentary for 1x01 which is Julian and Johnny and they were emphaising Merlin is a fantasy world (they were very big on talkingabout their world building) and therefore didn't have to be historically accurate as there weren't real things like magic and talking dragons so why should they worry about totmatoes and things.
God, you have no idea how much it annoys me that they call it "world building" when it's such a crap excuse. The only reason they've jumped on that now is because they got complaints about all the non-accuracy of the show, and of course if you say that it's a "fantasy world" then you can be as inaccurate about archictecture/dress/customs/etc and just put it under the guise of "oh well it doesn't matter, because Merlin isn't set in any particular time in history". *rolls eyes*
Besides, their "world building" is substandard to say the least. If taking ideas from every single thing to ever come before counts as 'creative license' then I suppose so. But then again, I never believe the best of Capps, because I think he's a little too full of himself.
*fickle* XD
Though it wouldn't surprise me if they were just being clever.
They have been known to do so on occasion. So maybe they are being clever.
As it turned out they knew Bradley from the pilot they did (Dis/connected) and actualyl had him in mind to play Arthur from the start. He was the only actor they thought of before the character apparently. And they did constantly mention his comedic ability.
Yea, I had heard that Capps worked with Bradley to do Dis/connected. That's kind of awesome really. I'm so glad that they did get Bradley - he really is a comic genius. And also he's a great actor! I'm glad they remembered him. :)
Reply
I think so. It's about the only way I can really justify the way they've written Gwen/Lancelot to be the ultimate true love pairing. In that I now expect them to end up together eventually.
God, you have no idea how much it annoys me that they call it "world building" when it's such a crap excuse.
They aren't actually building a world either, just taking parts from different things and putting them into a mix. I like the fantasy aspect but it shouldn;t be an excuse.
I mean techncially historical Arthue was set on the Dark Ages and you would never have a castle like Pierrefonds in the Dark Ages (you probably wouldn't get a castle like that in medieval times but that's another rant). So I get that they don't want to go down that historically accurate route but to then dismiss everything else seems a bit...arrogant.
Oh it's fantasy we don't have to worry about it. The beauty of fantasy is making it seem almost real. Sometimes they don't do that.
I think it's interesting in the commentary for 2x01 Bradley and Colin talk about the jacket Bradley wears as 'the Thriller jacket' which was taken off Bradley as TPTB thought it was 'too modern' but s Bradley points out he's also seen wearing chaps and a belt 'with a cartoon dragon on it' and apparently this doesn't bother TPTB. So they really do lack consistency with this stuff.
I never believe the best of Capps, because I think he's a little too full of himself.
Yeah same here. I get that vibe.
They have been known to do so on occasion. So maybe they are being clever.
Could be. Could be.
I'm so glad that they did get Bradley - he really is a comic genius. And also he's a great actor! I'm glad they remembered him. :)
Me too. And I am so glad Dis/connected never got a full series as then we'd never have had Merlin (with Bradley).
Reply
I almost hope that they do. They're obviously better suited for each other, in this version.
So I get that they don't want to go down that historically accurate route but to then dismiss everything else seems a bit...arrogant.
It is arrogant. They claim to want to do right by what they are doing, but by blatantly ignoring anachronisms (and then boasting about doing so!) seems like their way of saying "we don't care that you may be intelligent enough to pick this up. We're still doing it this way". Same with their mashing of the legends. You can't just dismiss things that happened in history for the sake of "building a fantasy world". If its going to be based on something real-world-based, then you can't just say that our anachronism concerns and consistencies don't count. Because they do.
I am so glad Dis/connected never got a full series as then we'd never have had Merlin (with Bradley).
I was under the impression that it did? And that Bradley just wasn't in the rest of the cast? IDK, but I am definitely glad that Bradley wasn't there, and so we could have him in Merlin. :DD
Reply
They are it is obvious. Even Bradley thinks this (but then he's not an A/G shipper at all. The entire commentary of 2x10 and I think he barely mentioned it. He was much more interested in talking about the Vivian storyline, the kiss with Vivian, how his mother was on set and of course mentions of Colin.).
Same with their mashing of the legends. You can't just dismiss things that happened in history for the sake of "building a fantasy world". If its going to be based on something real-world-based, then you can't just say that our anachronism concerns and consistencies don't count. Because they do.
*nods* It's a huge contradictory mess in terms of setting. It should have some historical basis as that's what the legends had. Totally made up history in most ways ut still.
I was under the impression that it did? And that Bradley just wasn't in the rest of the cast? IDK, but I am definitely glad that Bradley wasn't there, and so we could have him in Merlin. :DD
I went and looked it up. It was a one-off drama it seems. Although I have heard Johnny refer to it being a pilot (he mentions Holiday Granger and Caroline who plays Hunith as having worked on a pilot with them).
It was delayed with tranmission as the theme of teen suicide was very much in the news at the time.
Reply
Leave a comment