How fascinating! Now I understand better your interest in esperanto.
But isn't misunderstanding the essence of human communication? I mean it in a wholly positive way. The moment when you realize that the person you're talking to puts different meanings/expectations behind the same words is the moment when you go "aah!" and both of you are enriched.
Except, of course, if the person is trying to do you some violence.
As to having to mould oneself to a different mental universe, that's the whole point, for me, of learning a new language. It's like visiting an alien and fascinating world - the best trip ever. If I had the time, I'd like to learn Chinese, precisely because the mental universe is very different.
On the other hand, I agree that if the other person is unaware of the existence of different universes, it's frustrating.
The fear of making mistakes is possibly a French specificity. In Romania, we were encouraged to practice as much as possible, regardless of mistakes, the idea being that imperfections will correct themselves by constant comparison with the "right" forms. Mistakes are considered natural, and transitory.
I know that I wield French better than a vast majority of native speakers. I don't know if I'll reach the same level of proficiency in English, but I may hope. And it's such a satisfaction to pwn someone in his own native language!
But isn't misunderstanding the essence of human communication? I mean it in a wholly positive way.
Yes, when both are on an equal footing - like when we two communicate in English. But if, say, I only spoke French and you weren't proficient in it yet, I maybe wouldn't be that interested in the reasons why you mis-use a word and wouldn't go "aaah" at the clarification, and you'd get frustrated with not being able to express the different meanings. Ultimately, people communicate to get a message across, not to enrich each other, don't they? The enrichment comes from having passed so many messages over and back that one begins to form a global picture of what the other is like.
Mistakophobia could very well be French. All language teachers complain that no one participates in class, but they spend their time correcting every little mistake so that doesn't really encourage people to try.
And it's such a satisfaction to pwn someone in his own native language!
Oh yes. But, on the other hand, when I encounter native English speakers who consistently confuse "your" and "you're" or "their" and "they're", I can't help but wonder why I'm investing so much time and effort trying to understand them since they plainly aren't worth it.
I have had a brush with esperanto, but I didn't take to it because it hadn't that rich, weird, textured mental universe I'm looking for.
"Ultimately, people communicate to get a message across, not to enrich each other, don't they?"
If the point is getting a message across, you're certainly right. You're making me realize (fruitful misunderstanding!) that I'm much more interested in exchanging imagination, sensation, emotion. I want to feel what it feels like to be the other, including what the other misunderstand about her/himself and me. The moment when I'm suspended between two visions of the world is priceless for me.
But then I never translate in my head - Romanian, French and English are separate universes for me, I change my worldview when I jump from the one to another. And if I make mistakes, I consider them a characteristic of my particular dialect.
"when I encounter native English speakers who consistently confuse "your" and "you're" or "their" and "they're", I can't help but wonder why I'm investing so much time and effort trying to understand them since they plainly aren't worth it."
I tend to consider they speak a particular variant of the language, just as I do when I make mistakes. It doesn't preclude being smug about having a better handle! As for the effort, I'm doing it for pleasure and enjoying it all along.
Hm. I don't know that much about it yet, but at present it looks like it does make for a complex universe - the philosophy behind the word-building, the way concepts are broken down to little bits and then reassembled, that sort of thing. I'd need to be more proficient to go further on that kind of analysis though.
are separate universes for me, I change my worldview when I jump from the one to another
But don't you dream of being able to remain Romanian when talking to a Frenchman or an Englishman? (or vice-versa). I know your self is made of all those components, but wouldn't you be able to syncretise all of them in a neutral language? That's kind of what I'm after in esperanto.
I think I'm probably "too French" in my perception of mistakes :(
"But don't you dream of being able to remain Romanian when talking to a Frenchman or an Englishman? (or vice-versa)"
On the contrary, being able to leave and re-enter at will each separate universe is indispensable for me, or I'd feel trapped. If I used an artificial language I'd feel both trapped and without identity.
Maybe I am a freak. The fact is that I never knew what it feels like to have only one language - I'm bilingual since I was three years old. My identity is tied to the freedom to hop from one to another.
I understand that. When you get more proficient, it's like swimming in lukewarm water - you don't feel the limit between the self and the non-self. It's part of my need to hop from language to language.
Do you really? That´s fascinating. I cannot relate to that at all. The one thing that annoys me is that it´s so difficult to be funny in a second language. One is almost always forced to be seen as humorless since jokes and irony are so very dependent on shared context, hard to get right and to translate.
Maybe tthis sense of identity has something to do with at what age we first begin to learn a langage? In Sweden we normally start with english in class 4 - at the age of nine or ten. And we mostly depend on subtitles and only disney-movies and such are dubbed.
I started German when I was 10 too, and English two years after that, but I've spoken both a lot at university (I went abroad as much as I could). I never felt humour was a problem - on the contrary, speaking broken English sounds funny to Native speakers so it's very easy to play on that, as on accents, to make fun of yourself. And learning the language - its nuances, not the basics - is also about learning what makes them laugh. It's this kind of "trying to conform to an abstract model of What Natives Are Like" that makes me feel weird about myself in the long term - it's like straining oneself to achieve something that remains, for all means and purposes, an abstraction.
But isn't misunderstanding the essence of human communication? I mean it in a wholly positive way. The moment when you realize that the person you're talking to puts different meanings/expectations behind the same words is the moment when you go "aah!" and both of you are enriched.
Except, of course, if the person is trying to do you some violence.
As to having to mould oneself to a different mental universe, that's the whole point, for me, of learning a new language. It's like visiting an alien and fascinating world - the best trip ever. If I had the time, I'd like to learn Chinese, precisely because the mental universe is very different.
On the other hand, I agree that if the other person is unaware of the existence of different universes, it's frustrating.
The fear of making mistakes is possibly a French specificity. In Romania, we were encouraged to practice as much as possible, regardless of mistakes, the idea being that imperfections will correct themselves by constant comparison with the "right" forms. Mistakes are considered natural, and transitory.
I know that I wield French better than a vast majority of native speakers. I don't know if I'll reach the same level of proficiency in English, but I may hope. And it's such a satisfaction to pwn someone in his own native language!
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But isn't misunderstanding the essence of human communication? I mean it in a wholly positive way.
Yes, when both are on an equal footing - like when we two communicate in English. But if, say, I only spoke French and you weren't proficient in it yet, I maybe wouldn't be that interested in the reasons why you mis-use a word and wouldn't go "aaah" at the clarification, and you'd get frustrated with not being able to express the different meanings. Ultimately, people communicate to get a message across, not to enrich each other, don't they? The enrichment comes from having passed so many messages over and back that one begins to form a global picture of what the other is like.
Mistakophobia could very well be French. All language teachers complain that no one participates in class, but they spend their time correcting every little mistake so that doesn't really encourage people to try.
And it's such a satisfaction to pwn someone in his own native language!
Oh yes. But, on the other hand, when I encounter native English speakers who consistently confuse "your" and "you're" or "their" and "they're", I can't help but wonder why I'm investing so much time and effort trying to understand them since they plainly aren't worth it.
Reply
"Ultimately, people communicate to get a message across, not to enrich each other, don't they?"
If the point is getting a message across, you're certainly right. You're making me realize (fruitful misunderstanding!) that I'm much more interested in exchanging imagination, sensation, emotion. I want to feel what it feels like to be the other, including what the other misunderstand about her/himself and me. The moment when I'm suspended between two visions of the world is priceless for me.
But then I never translate in my head - Romanian, French and English are separate universes for me, I change my worldview when I jump from the one to another. And if I make mistakes, I consider them a characteristic of my particular dialect.
"when I encounter native English speakers who consistently confuse "your" and "you're" or "their" and "they're", I can't help but wonder why I'm investing so much time and effort trying to understand them since they plainly aren't worth it."
I tend to consider they speak a particular variant of the language, just as I do when I make mistakes. It doesn't preclude being smug about having a better handle! As for the effort, I'm doing it for pleasure and enjoying it all along.
Reply
are separate universes for me, I change my worldview when I jump from the one to another
But don't you dream of being able to remain Romanian when talking to a Frenchman or an Englishman? (or vice-versa). I know your self is made of all those components, but wouldn't you be able to syncretise all of them in a neutral language? That's kind of what I'm after in esperanto.
I think I'm probably "too French" in my perception of mistakes :(
Reply
On the contrary, being able to leave and re-enter at will each separate universe is indispensable for me, or I'd feel trapped. If I used an artificial language I'd feel both trapped and without identity.
Maybe I am a freak. The fact is that I never knew what it feels like to have only one language - I'm bilingual since I was three years old. My identity is tied to the freedom to hop from one to another.
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Maybe tthis sense of identity has something to do with at what age we first begin to learn a langage? In Sweden we normally start with english in class 4 - at the age of nine or ten. And we mostly depend on subtitles and only disney-movies and such are dubbed.
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