I understand what you're saying, and there's a lot of truth to it. But I would also offer that not every method of persuasion is really an argument. Emotionalism persuades a lot of people these days. And not just in the political realm. After all, the entire advertising industry is based on it!
I don't think I have any solution to the issue. (Especially not since it's going on 1 a.m.) I'm just tossing this bit out there as another piece of the puzzle.
Y'know, because it's not already complicated enough.
I agree. However, looked at differently, emotionalism IS an argument to those that are susceptible to that type of data. It's actually *our* failing that we can't construct instances that are appealing to those that find appeals to emotion convincing.
Because we *should* be able to! If the statistics are on our side, we should be able to find emotional examples. If the memes are right, then the statistics should back them, etcetera.
I attempted this and failed when talking to my brother the other day. He and his wife are Bernie Sanders fans, and I use that word intentionally, because their attitude about it is that of sports fans, not people who made a coldly logical choice after weighing the facts. Since it wasn't a logical choice to begin with, no logical argument would have swayed them. An honest try to persuade them would have needed to be an emotional appeal strong enough to break through their emotional commitment -- probably a personal attack. And it's not worth it to win the "argument" but lose the person.
It's actually *our* failing that we can't construct instances that are appealing to those that find appeals to emotion convincing.
You may be right. I think that's where the arts come in. (Or should come in.) The arts appeal more to the emotions/asthetics rather than cold logic. But non-leftist people, Christian people, and others who don't fall into the liberal category often dismiss this aspect.
That's the problem with life, not just politics. I'll hang out with people who think like me because I'm able to understand them and why they came to the conclusions they did. I can communicate with them and know they understand me. I'm trying really hard to understand and empathize with people who think differently than me, but if I can't understand why a person would be irrationally emotional or focus on petty issues while ignoring major problems or be hesitant to even share their opinions with me, then I'm not going to be able to be persuasive in a way they can understand.
I know Myers-Briggs is supposed to be entertainment, but I've been using it as a code book to figure out how people think differently. Is there something better that does this?
As I may have explained after the conversation to which you refer:
I care deeply about truth. In fact, it is not too strong to say that Truth is my God. (God is also Good and Beauty, to complete the Platonic triad; all are attributes of His.) Consequently I do not view truth as something I own, let alone that I can decide, but must search out through rigorous analysis using all available tools, chief among which is Reason, which I am awarding a capital letter because it is a loose translation of the Greek word Logos, the principle of all order and rationality in the universe, whom I also believe is God. Thus, if I believe something strongly enough to preach and argue it, you can bet that I have reasoned it out pretty completely. I have also adopted the personal motto, "If I can't teach it to anyone, I don't really know it," and pursuing that goal has required me to listen better and communicate better with all kinds of minds
( ... )
-Was curious to read about correlation between Myers-Briggs personality types and political affiliations, so I looked up some articles. This one was interesting (even though it's Daily Kos, :-P)
Most interesting is that if one takes the poll at the bottom, it shows that the NT-Intellectual types, though relatively rare, far outnumber the other types in the results, some by a thousand percent. I'm an NT type. Does that mean we're most into taking polls, or are we the ones most sitting around wondering about all this?
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I don't think I have any solution to the issue. (Especially not since it's going on 1 a.m.) I'm just tossing this bit out there as another piece of the puzzle.
Y'know, because it's not already complicated enough.
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Because we *should* be able to! If the statistics are on our side, we should be able to find emotional examples. If the memes are right, then the statistics should back them, etcetera.
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You may be right. I think that's where the arts come in. (Or should come in.) The arts appeal more to the emotions/asthetics rather than cold logic. But non-leftist people, Christian people, and others who don't fall into the liberal category often dismiss this aspect.
And that's why our side is losing.
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I know Myers-Briggs is supposed to be entertainment, but I've been using it as a code book to figure out how people think differently. Is there something better that does this?
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I care deeply about truth. In fact, it is not too strong to say that Truth is my God. (God is also Good and Beauty, to complete the Platonic triad; all are attributes of His.) Consequently I do not view truth as something I own, let alone that I can decide, but must search out through rigorous analysis using all available tools, chief among which is Reason, which I am awarding a capital letter because it is a loose translation of the Greek word Logos, the principle of all order and rationality in the universe, whom I also believe is God. Thus, if I believe something strongly enough to preach and argue it, you can bet that I have reasoned it out pretty completely. I have also adopted the personal motto, "If I can't teach it to anyone, I don't really know it," and pursuing that goal has required me to listen better and communicate better with all kinds of minds ( ... )
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/12/845453/-
Most interesting is that if one takes the poll at the bottom, it shows that the NT-Intellectual types, though relatively rare, far outnumber the other types in the results, some by a thousand percent. I'm an NT type. Does that mean we're most into taking polls, or are we the ones most sitting around wondering about all this?
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