Dangerous Love

[followinggiants]

A couple of weeks ago at the soup kitchen I volunteer at once a month (it's run by a sister church of ours), there was a break in work and we were standing around talking and somehow the war in Iraq came up; now I have increasingly found it difficult to align with either Right or Left on anything, but I have been bothered by our President's view of

Comments

[belovedcrown]

the people of the country in question already knew they were being mistreated. They hated/feared saddam and his horrific torture. sending them aid is a beautiful idea but it in no way stops their torture by their leader against them. i think your idea is applicable in the situation where country a is fighting against country b and you want country b to back down, perhaps country a can "assault" country b with love and soften their hearts. But when country b's leaders are torturing its citizens or the citizens of another country, its a different story. It that situation, its more of a hostage scenario where a man has kidnapped a family from the mall and is threatening to blow their heads off if you don't give him money. And you are saying, ok lets give him money and love unconditionally and maybe he won't blow their heads off. its one thing to gamble with your own life (lay down your own life for your principles), its another thing to stand by and watch a 3rd party (the iraqi citizens) be slaughtered and tortured while you try to love their abusers into stopping.

also, its a pretty safe bet that the torturers of the iraqi people have their hearts hardened to the point that while God might be able to love them out of their ways, we are not able to.

see the difference?

[followinggiants]

Turn the other cheek comes to mind...as I said in my post, I volunteer in a soup kitchen and we have the same people coming back all the time so moving your argument to that situation we should stop feeding them because they aren't stopping being drunks or druggies..."also, its a pretty safe bet that the torturers of the iraqi people have their hearts hardened to the point that while God might be able to love them out of their ways, we are not able to."
Again, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends."

[h1s_songb1rd]

You're assuming the USA is a Christian nation and the Bush is equal to Moses, Abraham, Paul or Peter. That's assuming a lot. Bush is a Christian, but the USA is hardly a Christian nation. Besides, was it love when Paul turned the peole against each other in Acts? No, it was strategy. Was Paul wrong to do that? I don't think so. I think he was smart.

[belovedcrown]

So am i to believe that if you happen upon a man holding a family hostage or beating a woman in the street you are going to try to persuade him lovingly to stop instead of calling the cops? And what if that doesn't work, then what? You sacrifice the hostages and let him kill them and do nothing? Its your right and moral obligation to turn the other cheek if someone is hurting you, but if someone is abusing a 3rd party and you have the power to stop them its destructive to stand by and do nothing aggressive. You're actually in that case empowering others to sin instead of holding them accountable as brothers.

[haikupoetess]

It seems to me that you are attributing far more power to the police and to military forces than they actually have, and greatly underestimating love. As Forrest alluded to earlier, "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help." God is God over all the world, over everybody, and He has commanded us not to make democrats of all nations, but disciples of Jesus. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. For the example of the hostages: first of all, there are too many variables in that situation. Who knows if you would be able to call the cops? And if you were, what guarantee do you have that they would be able to right the situation? I'm not saying it's not a good idea to call them; I would. But our trust is misplaced if we think that's the only way the family would be rescued.
Furthermore, how do you know that we're actually saving people's lives over in Iraq? How can you say for a certainty that the Way of Democracy is better or more effective than the way of salf-sacrificial love?
When you say that Forrest is assuming the US is a Christian nation...he wasn't talking about us as the US; he was talking about us as Christians.

[belovedcrown]

Thanks for the feedback. My faith and trust is in the lord, not in man. I certainly believe it is wise to leave room for God to work miracles apart from man entirely, but I also know that God often works his will through the arms of man.

Love != not getting angry (Jesus got angry in the temple over the moneychangers and shouted and turned over tables)

Love != watching victims die at the hands of a madman while we sit back and pray for the madman's conversion to christ.

I'm curious the thoughts you and Forrest have on WW2 and how we should have proceeded against the Japanese and Hitler versus how we actually proceeded.

At all time we should be in earnest prayer, at all times we should hold the hope that God will soften the hearts of our enemies and spare their victims from their sin, and at all times we should look for ways to resolve conflicts peacefully. But when we've come to the end of peaceful negotiations and lives are at stake, after much prayer and caution, we must prepare for battle. If a people stand for righteousness and go into battle for a righteous cause, God is with them, just as he was with Joshua in the OT. Of this I am certain.

Also, as a side note, i was not the poster who said forrest assumed the us is a christian nation, that was someone else. :)

[followinggiants]

"Love != watching victims die at the hands of a madman while we sit back and pray for the madman's conversion to christ."
Just curious, is this your veiw or your perseption of my veiw? I have long supported in prayer those christians brave enough to fly aid to the oppressed christians of Sudan, and I don't believe we sit back; "Love is a Verb" to quote the song, and yes God works through the arms of man, especially the arms of His followers here on earth.
As for my veiw on WW2, that is a long and difficult discussion...I think that our leaders at the time entered the war more for economic reasons than idealogical, I do believe that Hitler was an anti-Christ, I thank God for such people as the ten Booms saving human life.
But America is now veiwed as an Imperialist power worried about only itself by most of the third world and some first world countries (rightly or wrongly) and is that not what Japan was doing?(not condoning Japaniese actions at all here!)
I am also saddened by this war knowing that husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, daughters and sons are dying and afraid that our children and grandchildren will ask to what end as many are or have with Vietnam (where my Uncle was killed).

[belovedcrown]

when i said love does not equal letting a madman kill his victims, that was my view. if we have a way to physically intervene and prevent said madman from doing so and we do not do it and he kills and tortures people i think we will have to answer to god for that.

i am saddened by this war also. but i am hopeful and pray frequently that we will be victorious in rooting out the terrorists in iraq.

[h1s_songb1rd]

Been visiting the friendsfriends, eh? :)

[belovedcrown]

yeah. :) i didn't even check to see who this friendfriend was a friend of. but now i see its you. hehe.