keeping up appearances

[flamingjune07]

This thing reminds me of this thing. It also makes me wonder if perhaps it isn't a little problematic to view the Harvard kid as an exceptional case, constitutionally a criminal whereas all the rest of us are perfectly normal, with all our ethical integrity intact. Certainly, it's probably not a bad idea to try to "seem smart" in addition to

Comments

[flamingjune07]

A little OT, but:

All kids tell lies. They tell you they ate those $6 organic strawberries you put in their lunch, when they really tossed them in the trash. They tell you they didn't break your grandmother's china tea pot, when you saw them drop it.

First: gee [author], thanks for so thoroughly situating your article socioeconomically right from the outset! It's nice to have a little transparency when it comes to biases.

But secondly -- what kind of idiot is this person's kid? Who didn't like strawberries when they were a kid? And, maybe I was just an especially perceptive kid, but aren't the kid-rules of getting away with lying that you're supposed to turn up the puppy-dog eyes and sorrily accept your guilt when someone sees you, so that you can get away with the stuff they don't see? Not that I ever did anything like that...

[flamingjune07]

Also:

parents should pause children in the moment before they suspect a lie may be coming and say, "You make me really happy if you tell me the truth," Bronson recommended in an interview with NPR.

Wow, way to teach your kids that acceptable behavior is totally contingent upon how to get the greatest reward out of the immediate situation (in this case, parental approval/love). Yikes.

In general, I find it unsurprising that there would be a correlation with lying and cognitive development, for the reasons the article alludes to -- but of course, just because your kid being a liar means they're smart enough to lie doesn't at all make it a good thing. Weird.

[flamingjune07]

I guess I can see that. I just wouldn't suppose that children aren't smart enough to tell that this only requires them to tell the truth when it's convenient (e.g. when it doesn't entail people being mad at them). I mean, I'm all for positive reinforcement and whatnot, but if I had a kid, I'd probably let myself be pissed at them for lying to me (and more pissed the longer it goes on). That seems like a pretty "accurate idea" to me? I mean, it just seems weird to me to be "really happy" if your kid confesses something bad, just because you want to encourage them not to lie?

[opalnipotent]

In our home, lying means there is a negative consequence for the lie, and if it's to cover up an undesirable choice/behaviour, then there is a negative consequence for that as well.

What I do is explain very thoroughly why I am upset by the lying, and how happy I am that the offending child confessed. We further explain that while we are happy/proud of them for confessing, there is still a consequence for the choice of lying, and for the thing they were trying to hide. (whereas it would be much better for the child if they had just been truthful from the beginning)

The consequence for lying when the lie is confessed without us finding out first is *less* than the consequence if the child is found out. Also, lying further after being caught is almost like a cardinal sin in our home. You've been caught, time to take responsibility for your choices.

[flamingjune07]

That seems totally reasonable to me. It's also at least accurate to how some adult interactions go -- I mean, I know that for instance if I find out that a friend is lying to me about something, I'm much more inclined to be forgiving/let's-fix-this about it if I find out because they confess it to me (but still, of course, mad about whatever the thing was).

[opalnipotent]

In actual reality though, the only reason a person ever does anything is because they want something positive or want to avoid something negative. Kids get this, or at least *my* kids get this

[flamingjune07]

In actual reality though, the only reason a person ever does anything is because they want something positive or want to avoid something negative. Kids get this, or at least *my* kids get this.

Maybe, but it seems like there's still sort of a problem of scale -- I mean, I would much rather have people doing things because they want the positive outcome of feeling good about themselves for "doing the right thing" or whatever, as opposed to feeling good because they've finagled some kind of desirable reaction out of people, you know?

In terms of parenting, though, it does make sense to want to associate good feelings with telling the truth, because hopefully then your kids will be trained to feel like telling the truth itself is good. I won't pretend to know anything about how that actually works or the best way to go about it, but everything you say sounds reasonable to me.