Words

[fjm]

"Sticks and stones will break my bones
But words will never harm me."

Possibly 1862, maybe earlier.

One of the great lies of the English nursery. Words are what make it possible for people to harm others: they set up legitimate targets, dehumanise the target, and ultimately excuse the attacker.

Comments

[danieldwilliam]

I see this sentiment as coming out of the Stoic tradition of being able to train yourself to not mind about words or reputation but to concentrate on being a good person according to your won lights. That the will is stronger than emotion.

So not a statement that words can’t hurt you but an exhortation to be the sort of person who is not affected by other person’s words or thoughts.

I’m of the view that the empirical evidence on the utility of Stoicism does not favour Stoicism.

[fjm]

It never seems to be used that way interestingly enough, although it is what I believe (to misquote Aral Vorkosigan: Reputation is what others know of you; honour is what you know of yourself.)

[swan_tower]

Also makes me think of Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission." It's a concept I agree with, though of course the application is exceedingly thorny, what with "permission" not being a thing we can easily choose to withhold.

[vschanoes]

I've always hated that line. It has always seemed to me like an incredible way of blaming the victim. It is normal and human to feel inferior when treated poorly by others, and putting the blame for it on the victim for "consenting" drives me up the wall, and always has, ever since elementary school when I first encountered it.

[swan_tower]

That's kind of what I meant by it being "thorny," though. The line can certainly be read as victim-blaming (and for all I know, that's how she meant it) -- but that isn't the message I took from it. Rather, that quote made me realize that it isn't just the words: the same put-down from two different people can evoke very different reactions in me, depending on the extent to which I value the opinion of the person insulting me. Which I actually find really, really helpful. Sometimes it makes me understand I care more what that person thinks of me than I had realized. Sometimes it encourages me to examine my relationship and say, y'know, you aren't worth that kind of emotional investment from me.

I think that can be victim-blaming, and that isn't an application I support. But I think it can also be empowering, because it gives me a way to conceptualize the situation that genuinely gives me more control over it. Not perfect control, not by a long shot: actually divesting myself of emotional attachment to somebody's opinion isn't

[nellorat]

I agree with you, but I think the words alone have either meaning, and the tone/actions of the person saying it define it.

I feel the same with "sticks and stones."

My mother never said either, but very much promoted the idea behind the useful, good meaning of those phrases: don't stew over it because the people saying such things don't matter. But she (mostly) backed that meaning up with emotional support in other ways.

[pnh]

Yes. Very very yes.

Feeling like crap is the natural result of being treated a certain way, and it is the aim of that treatment.

[danieldwilliam]

Good old Aral.

I think the thing about Stoicism, like other philosophical movements is that they have been found difficult and not tried.

Much easier to waft a few words over a problem and hope that it, or at least the other person goes away, than it is to transmit the fruits of a lifetime of dedicated practise, meditation and learning.

Further to the XKCD comic mentioned above - it takes a lot of effort to de-programme yourself from the effect of words making you think you deserve the beating that you’re getting or to de-programme yourself from giving yourself a beating. Given what appears to a be a profound link between words and emotions and emotions and physical self I think beating isn’t too strong a word.

I think it’s possible to do that de-programming but it appears very hard. Certainly, I’m finding it hard. I wouldn’t use Stoicism as my method, and I speak as a lapsed Stoic.

[heleninwales]

That was more or less how I was taught it as a child but I'm older than you and also grew up in something of a Victorian time warp, so perhaps it's lost those connotations?

We actually only every used it as a playground taunt. It's for when the bullies can't catch you and, frustrated, they hurl some lame insult. You dance just out of reach singing, "Nyer, nyer, neh, nyer-nyer! Sticks and stones..."

In that context, it works if you believe in it; if you don't believe in it, it won't work.

I don't think it was ever meant as a philosophy for adult life, neither was it intended to apply to ongoing and deliberate verbal abuse. And it absolutely shouldn't be used as a piece of advice to people who are affected by verbal bullying.