The No-Porn Pledge

[fierceawakening]

I wish I could say I'm surprised this exists, but I'm not.

It's a site on which people can pledge not to use pornography, and not only that, to refuse to have an intimate relationship with anyone who does.

Which, yeah, hardly news, some conservatives do that sort of thing all the time, right? Except that this appears to be linked to anti-porn

Comments

[preciouslilme]

I haven't signed the pledge but won't date someone who watches porn simply because in my experience the men who watch porn and then want to fuck me treat me like crap, and from what I hear off friends they have exactly the same experiences, although some are more willing to put up with it. I'm just a bit astounded that you seem to think that people like me are trying to manipulate others or something. For me there's simply no point dating someone who watches porn because I know it's not going to last, that simple. It's like someone who doesn't drink alcohol going out with someone who does: eventually the differences catch up with you.

[fierceawakening]

That hasn't been my experience, or that of some of the people I know at all, so I rather resent people talking in universals about this. Especially when they then create "pledges," as if "pledges" not to engage in sexual activity deemed unclean weren't a common tactic by obvious representatives of the patriarchy to control women already.

And that still doesn't answer my question: *I'm* someone who uses pornography. Do you feel you know, from that, that I am not worth dating? Do I treat women the way you think the average cisgendered man does? I'm still waiting for an answer on that.

[preciouslilme]

That may be very true for a lot of people but I think that it does differ greatly from age group to age group. I'm only 20 and the people around my age group are the ones who have been watching porn since they were young teens, way before they were having sex, way before they realised what real women/men look/act like etc. I personally wouldn't date you. I've found it's just not worth the hassle figuring out exactly how involved in porn someone is and exactly how much it has shaped their behaviour. I have better things to do with my time so I choose to date people that I know I am not going to have to go through all of that with.

[fierceawakening]

That may be very true for a lot of people but I think that it does differ greatly from age group to age group. I'm only 20 and the people around my age group are the ones who have been watching porn since they were young teens, way before they were having sex, way before they realised what real women/men look/act like etc.

That's logical, but I'm really not sure it makes sense in this case. I'm 29, and porn was already becoming very popular when I was young. Friends asked if I used it as far back as my late teens, and I knew about it far earlier than that. So I don't think I was raised in some innocent, bygone age or anything.

[preciouslilme]

I'm not quite that naive, but I do think that access to worse/harder stuff is much more accessible and at a much younger age than it was and that when introduced at such a younger age that it is going to have deeper, more long lasting effects. For example a 16/17 year old may have already seen a girl (or two!) naked, seen how she reacts etc and can then compare that with porn. I 13/14 year old has nothing to base comparisons of porn against so it becomes real.

[preciouslilme]

Oh, also, signing a no porn pledge is hardly like signing a chastity pledge. I'm not a Christian, I don't believe sexuality or lust is evil but I think that porn, the way it is now, shoves sexuality as a broad term into a tiny little box that I would personally label "Female submissve, male dominance". I've heard all the arguments about there being all sorts of porn etc but in reality mainstream porn is about objectifying women's bodies/sexuality (for example, you're much more likely to have naked women rather than naked men on the front cover of porn DVDs). I'm not a submissive nor do I intend to ever be a submissive and I think sleeping with men who have a higher chance of treating me that way is a hell of a lot more controlling than me deciding to sleep with men who are less likely to treat me like that (note that it's not universal and that there are exceptions to the rule, but in general its is true for the majority

[fierceawakening]

I'm glad to see that you feel sure of what you need and of how best to get it. I don't have a problem with what you want, I just don't agree with you that "not using pornography" really equals "having more respect

[preciouslilme]

To me the pledge is no different to signing say an anti-war petition and then not voting for pro-war politicians. Some people (like me) know what I believe and don't feel I need to sign the pledge. For others (especially ex-porn addicts, or people who have been the partner of one) its something they can do to officially to say to themselves "I'm moving on" or "I'm not tolerating that anymore

[fierceawakening]

I don't have time to address everything you're saying here, but I will say that I don't believe everyone who is not anti-pornography is perfect. I've definitely met my share of people who I feel are *far* too quick to claim that pornography really does depict what women usually want, or to claim that some women's reservations about pornography are about demonizing men for feeling sexual desire. (I do think there are *some* people who do seem to me to be demonizing any kind of sexual lust or any kind of lust from men, and that bothers me, but I don't think it's everyone by any means.)

What I do feel is that abolition is not only not possible, but also not any kind of solution to the problems our culture has. I really don't think that making certain kinds of visual media unavailable will change how people in our society think of or treat women. As Ren points out here, there's a lot that would still need cleaning up. And why presume that people, if they are affected by media to degrees that make them creepy, are more strongly affected

[fierceawakening]

And my point about people in the movement isn't to say that I think everyone in a movement has to be perfect. I don't think that. I do think the amount of times I've seen people in the anti-pornography movement behave badly toward other people really bothers me. I have seen this sort of thing so many times that I am suspicious in a way I would not be of movements that just had a couple bad eggs in them.

Again, I don't say this to suggest that you would do any of these sorts of things. I just think a lot of the bedfellows are creepy, and that even if I agreed with the general position it would still bother me a lot.

[preciouslilme]

I agree withe the pornification theory that says that other forms of media have been equally effected by the porn culture (for example women's magazines that tell women how they have to look, and that look is a version of the porn look, or film/tv shows that is pretty much just porn). I guess when I say "porn" I also mean the other things as well, like supposed "lad's mags" which are full of degradation

[fierceawakening]

but I do think that there are a lot of people who do think that men naturally "need" porn and to act it out and to treat women like crap as if its a biological need like food or water.I don't think the people who say that men need porn are saying that they have a biological need to treat women badly. I think they're saying that men have relatively high libidos and so they "need" to see things that are sexually arousing. I think the question of whether pornography does depict treating women like crap is a separate question. We can agree that men "need" it and then ask "okay, suppose people do need visual sexually arousing material. Now what do we depict and sell/give to them?" and not want to sell/give them what gets produced today

[preciouslilme]

Men don't "need" to see anything of the sort. People are capable of self-control and it's not like they are going to die if they don't watch porn. I'm sure they do like watching women being degraded but it's like the argument that if they don't watch it then they are going to cheat

[fierceawakening]

Men don't "need" to see anything of the sort. People are capable of self-control and it's not like they are going to die if they don't watch porn.

I'm not sure if this is responding to anything I said. Saying that arousing media can be fun for people isn't saying they'll die without it. So I think you've misinterpreted me, unless you said that to agree with me. :)

There are heaps of people who consider themselves pro-porn feminists who go on to watch porn that treats women like they are nothing.Well, that's true; the position I hold is that anyone should have the right to look at anything they want, and not just the right but also shouldn't be harassed or bothered for it. So yes, some people will definitely be using all kinds of porn. And yeah, I don't really have the same sort of problem with that that you do. I don't think that looking at porn is any different from, say, watching movies -- and while I don't like some of the very sensationalistic stuff Hollywood comes up with, I also don't think that most people who choose to, say

[fierceawakening]

Also, if you *define* pornography as media that includes degradation or includes violence, you'll have to be prepared for the possibility that at least some industry-made stuff ends up not being pornography.

[preciouslilme]

I probably won't reply much more because I start back at uni today, but I will say that you should read a book called The Porn Report. It's a new Australian study on porn. It's not anti-porn at all but does come to some anti-porn conclusions, such as the fact that increased porn usage leads to men not caring about their partners in the bedroom. It's very interesting and well worth it. As for your point about the studies, there are very few, but there are also very few studies that support porn use that have not been funded by porn companies, so neither side has much to go on with that. For your last point: would you watch porn if it wasn't violent towards women? Honestly? Would you be bored if you saw porn of a couple of loving sex?