Very interesting and I hope this sparks a lot of conversation.
As far as the evolution of the female characters, FFXII takes more of an ensemble cast approach for the main characters by making Vaan (the supposed main character since he's who you control in towns) more of an observer who becomes heroic at the end. Ashe is clearly one of the main characters (and Balthier, the self proclaimed leading man, the anti-hero with a mysterious story that slowly unfolds).
What I find interesting about Ashe is that although she is protected by male characters---first Vossler, in the resistance, and then Basch---she does not seem to defer to them or seek self meaning or self identity through them. We don't get to see enough of her relationship with Vossler but it is fair to say that she trusts his experience, wisdom, and judgment. What I find more interesting is how Ashe acts around Basch (presumably equally experienced as Vossler). She does not defer to him, she feels the freedom to disagree with him, such as the scene on the Ozmone plains just before heading toward Golmore. Furthermore, while Basch is her appointed protector, one can argue that he never "saves" Ashe from anything but merely helps. For example, Vossler is the one who seemed to have the actual plan for freeing Ashe from Ghis (although he needed Basch&crew's muscle power); and Vaan is the person who physically helps Ashe try to destroy the sun cryst just before Reddas takes over.
I'd posit that Ashe really isn't defined at all by the men in the game but that some of the men are defined through her.
You've made some interesting points. I would be interested to see what Ashe's personality was like before Rasler's death, and how she changed in the years she had to live among men in the sewers. I think she would have been determined to learn how to wield a sword, and she would have also learned to conceal her emotions. She wanted to earn the Resistance's trust, and she probably felt that she had to acquire more masculine traits like aggressiveness and reason in order for them to respect her. I wonder how she will adjust to life in the palace once again.
The point of my essay was trying to show that a woman doesn't have to have typical "masculine" traits to be strong or a good leader (just look at Lucil).
On masculine traits - yes. They shouldn't be necessary. Lucil is a good example of female leadership - Ashe, I'd hesitate, is perhaps a bad one (whilst still a good leader). Feminism wasn't about women having the freedom to be like men, because men are trapped in their own string of expectation/weakness. Feminism wanted women to have liberty from any imposed constraint or expectation.
Ashe ultimately is a Ruler - and this meant her character conforms to certain male expectations of rulership. Men such as Basch can only define themselves through her if she meets this expectation of certain masculine traits. (Think about how much Basch detests the thought of using the stone - does magick=feminine?) Ashe is, perhaps, the 'weakest' female character in FFXII because she has so little about her that is female. (She completely misses Balthier's interest? ;) - or am I getting into headcanon now?)
Fran, on the other hand, freed herself of the expectations firstly of the wood-viera, defying her role there. Then she entered the world, and defied the role of 'world-viera', aloof, cold, alone, by pairing up with Balthier. And then, just when we think she's still some kind of cold character, she contradicts even Balthier's expectations of her and strongly hints at loving him. A typical female role, perhaps, but with the enough freedom to have chosen such?
And, again on the whole maturation of FFXII along these lines, we as players have the ability to customise the whole party as we will, and without the constraints of FFX's sphere grid. I get kicks out of Penelo and Basch as my tanks; Balthier and Ashe as mages, Fran and Vaan as healers. All (apart from Basch) completely not their typical roles. ;)
I've noticed that magick does seem to be typically a feminine trait as far as FF is concerned. The only exceptions to this are Vivi and Arc. Perhaps this is because magick=mystery, and females are considered more mysterious and spiritual than males. Ashe does seem to rebel against her feminine aspects. Maybe she sees feminity as weakness, or gained that view from living with the Resistance for so long. Or she may feel that she must be masculine so men will admire her, because leaders who show feminine qualities are not considered as capable. Perhaps by adopting masculine traits she is renouncing her role as a sex object, so that she will gain respect. It's easier to be "one of the guys" when they no longer see you as sexually desirable (though I still believe the words masculine and feminine are obsolete because I don't feel the sexes are born with inherent traits).
Fran is quite wonderful, and I think it shows strength of character that she loves a hume, when the viera are so arrogant and proud. She broke free from her race's expectations and did what she wanted with her life.
Yes, and it is interesting that Vivi isn't very human looking either. Instead, his appearance is very cute, small, and childlike.
I definitely think Ashe sees femininity as a weakness (more about that in a comment below). I'm not sure that adopting masculine traits is something she did to renounce her role as a sex object. Heck, some of those men strike me as sex objects from my female point of view. Basch, either button your shirt or start dancing as you strip! ;)
I think that Ashe decided that being "feminine" is a weakness. When the game opens, she is presented in a very feminine light: a beautiful glowing bride dressed in soft, light colors and her facial expressions are very sweet and soft. After Rasler died, her father died, and her kingdom fell she might have decided that everything about being feminine was bad and weak. In doing such, she tossed out both the weak and strong parts of femininity.
Going well beyond the FF series and games in general, I think it would be pretty easy to make a case that modern media (TV, movies) are more likely to attribute magical powers to women and physical powers to men. We know that trend exists in the FF series. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that the stones in FFXII can be fairly categorized as "feminine/magick." Based purely on the storyline, the stones were cut by the Dynast King (male) and passed down through royal lines (presumably men and women). Perhaps we can say that the stones are still cryptically a feminine symbol because male characters (Vayne, Ghis) want the stones so they can gain their magick powers and that they fail miserably at using the stones correctly. Yet, for hundreds of years, male (and presumably female) descendants of the Dynast King kept peace with the stones. I worry that equating the stones with feminine/magick (or not) gets into circular reasoning that isn't easily resolved.
I'd argue that Basch detests the idea of using the stone not because it is against his masculine nature but because of his desire to prevent war and his belief that bitter enemies can become friends. If we want to align that with gendered stereotypes, Basch's desire to be reconciliatory and promote peace is a more of a feminine trait. Does that make him represent the healthy femininity that Ashe lacks?
Yes, good points about Ashe and leadership. I'm not even sure I consider her a good leader because she is often fueled by desire for revenge and she often seems blind to what her people need or want. She does present as a strong ruler (ruling over people, making decisions for them) but not necessarily a leader (leading people toward what they want or need).
As evidence of Ashe's leadership problems and Basch's reconciliatory, peace-driven behavior, here's some of the script from the Ozmone Plain when Ashe was considering if she should create an alliance between Dalmasca & Archades:
Ashe: And you can just accept this, can you?
Basch: After Vayne’s ruse I had abandoned hope for honor… Yet never did I forget my knightly vows. If I could protect but one person from war’s horror…then I would bear any shame. I would bear it proudly. I could not defend my home. What is shame to me?
[Brief pause as Ashe starts to walk away…]
Ashe: My people hate the Empire. They will not accept this.
Basch: There is hope.
[The camera shows Vaan, Penelo and Larsa talking.]
Basch: Hope for a future where we can join hands as brothers.
----
I agree that as far as having a health feminine side, Ashe is one of the "weakest" female characters in the FF series and in FFXII in particular purely because she seems so terribly uncomfortable with the idea of ever displaying any feminine traits. Vossler says it all:
Vossler: Her Majesty cannot abide weakness, least of all in herself. We must make her confront the reality of our plight.
Excellent quote. Basch and Vossler are even vaguely feminine in their 'sacrificial' saviour roles. Even with the side-play of Vossler's being seduced to the 'dark side'...
Ohhh, so many topics that need seriously constructive research and referencing. It's been years since I've had to construct a logical argument. Right now I'm talking too much off the cuff. I'll get back to this.
One of the more interesting things I've read was a gender switch, with Ashe as a male prince and Basch and Vossler as female knights. Very psychological an' all. ;)
For someone who is billed as the manly heroic knight in shining armor, Basch is Mr. Sacrificial. My guess is that he buried his ego somewhere in the squalid dirt floors of Nablina dungeon. Out of the entire FF series (which I have nothing but love and more love for), FFXII really caught my imagination because I thought the script did interesting things with gender roles and bending certain character class stereotypes (the princess who is a hard ass and is never saved by her knight, etc.).
OOOOOH! Psychological gender switch fic?! Sounds very interesting. Can you post a link to it?
As far as the evolution of the female characters, FFXII takes more of an ensemble cast approach for the main characters by making Vaan (the supposed main character since he's who you control in towns) more of an observer who becomes heroic at the end. Ashe is clearly one of the main characters (and Balthier, the self proclaimed leading man, the anti-hero with a mysterious story that slowly unfolds).
What I find interesting about Ashe is that although she is protected by male characters---first Vossler, in the resistance, and then Basch---she does not seem to defer to them or seek self meaning or self identity through them. We don't get to see enough of her relationship with Vossler but it is fair to say that she trusts his experience, wisdom, and judgment. What I find more interesting is how Ashe acts around Basch (presumably equally experienced as Vossler). She does not defer to him, she feels the freedom to disagree with him, such as the scene on the Ozmone plains just before heading toward Golmore. Furthermore, while Basch is her appointed protector, one can argue that he never "saves" Ashe from anything but merely helps. For example, Vossler is the one who seemed to have the actual plan for freeing Ashe from Ghis (although he needed Basch&crew's muscle power); and Vaan is the person who physically helps Ashe try to destroy the sun cryst just before Reddas takes over.
I'd posit that Ashe really isn't defined at all by the men in the game but that some of the men are defined through her.
Reply
The point of my essay was trying to show that a woman doesn't have to have typical "masculine" traits to be strong or a good leader (just look at Lucil).
Reply
On masculine traits - yes. They shouldn't be necessary. Lucil is a good example of female leadership - Ashe, I'd hesitate, is perhaps a bad one (whilst still a good leader). Feminism wasn't about women having the freedom to be like men, because men are trapped in their own string of expectation/weakness. Feminism wanted women to have liberty from any imposed constraint or expectation.
Ashe ultimately is a Ruler - and this meant her character conforms to certain male expectations of rulership. Men such as Basch can only define themselves through her if she meets this expectation of certain masculine traits. (Think about how much Basch detests the thought of using the stone - does magick=feminine?) Ashe is, perhaps, the 'weakest' female character in FFXII because she has so little about her that is female. (She completely misses Balthier's interest? ;) - or am I getting into headcanon now?)
Fran, on the other hand, freed herself of the expectations firstly of the wood-viera, defying her role there. Then she entered the world, and defied the role of 'world-viera', aloof, cold, alone, by pairing up with Balthier. And then, just when we think she's still some kind of cold character, she contradicts even Balthier's expectations of her and strongly hints at loving him. A typical female role, perhaps, but with the enough freedom to have chosen such?
And, again on the whole maturation of FFXII along these lines, we as players have the ability to customise the whole party as we will, and without the constraints of FFX's sphere grid. I get kicks out of Penelo and Basch as my tanks; Balthier and Ashe as mages, Fran and Vaan as healers. All (apart from Basch) completely not their typical roles. ;)
Reply
Fran is quite wonderful, and I think it shows strength of character that she loves a hume, when the viera are so arrogant and proud. She broke free from her race's expectations and did what she wanted with her life.
Reply
I definitely think Ashe sees femininity as a weakness (more about that in a comment below). I'm not sure that adopting masculine traits is something she did to renounce her role as a sex object. Heck, some of those men strike me as sex objects from my female point of view. Basch, either button your shirt or start dancing as you strip! ;)
I think that Ashe decided that being "feminine" is a weakness. When the game opens, she is presented in a very feminine light: a beautiful glowing bride dressed in soft, light colors and her facial expressions are very sweet and soft. After Rasler died, her father died, and her kingdom fell she might have decided that everything about being feminine was bad and weak. In doing such, she tossed out both the weak and strong parts of femininity.
Reply
Going well beyond the FF series and games in general, I think it would be pretty easy to make a case that modern media (TV, movies) are more likely to attribute magical powers to women and physical powers to men. We know that trend exists in the FF series. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that the stones in FFXII can be fairly categorized as "feminine/magick." Based purely on the storyline, the stones were cut by the Dynast King (male) and passed down through royal lines (presumably men and women). Perhaps we can say that the stones are still cryptically a feminine symbol because male characters (Vayne, Ghis) want the stones so they can gain their magick powers and that they fail miserably at using the stones correctly. Yet, for hundreds of years, male (and presumably female) descendants of the Dynast King kept peace with the stones. I worry that equating the stones with feminine/magick (or not) gets into circular reasoning that isn't easily resolved.
I'd argue that Basch detests the idea of using the stone not because it is against his masculine nature but because of his desire to prevent war and his belief that bitter enemies can become friends. If we want to align that with gendered stereotypes, Basch's desire to be reconciliatory and promote peace is a more of a feminine trait. Does that make him represent the healthy femininity that Ashe lacks?
Yes, good points about Ashe and leadership. I'm not even sure I consider her a good leader because she is often fueled by desire for revenge and she often seems blind to what her people need or want. She does present as a strong ruler (ruling over people, making decisions for them) but not necessarily a leader (leading people toward what they want or need).
As evidence of Ashe's leadership problems and Basch's reconciliatory, peace-driven behavior, here's some of the script from the Ozmone Plain when Ashe was considering if she should create an alliance between Dalmasca & Archades:
Ashe: And you can just accept this, can you?
Basch: After Vayne’s ruse I had abandoned hope for honor… Yet never did I forget my knightly vows. If I could protect but one person from war’s horror…then I would bear any shame. I would bear it proudly. I could not defend my home. What is shame to me?
[Brief pause as Ashe starts to walk away…]
Ashe: My people hate the Empire. They will not accept this.
Basch: There is hope.
[The camera shows Vaan, Penelo and Larsa talking.]
Basch: Hope for a future where we can join hands as brothers.
----
I agree that as far as having a health feminine side, Ashe is one of the "weakest" female characters in the FF series and in FFXII in particular purely because she seems so terribly uncomfortable with the idea of ever displaying any feminine traits. Vossler says it all:
Vossler: Her Majesty cannot abide weakness, least of all in herself. We must
make her confront the reality of our plight.
Reply
Ohhh, so many topics that need seriously constructive research and referencing. It's been years since I've had to construct a logical argument. Right now I'm talking too much off the cuff. I'll get back to this.
One of the more interesting things I've read was a gender switch, with Ashe as a male prince and Basch and Vossler as female knights. Very psychological an' all. ;)
Reply
OOOOOH! Psychological gender switch fic?! Sounds very interesting. Can you post a link to it?
Reply
And I totally can't find it. Gah. It was in quite a formal style too.
Reply
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