[POLL] Rule Changes

May 22, 2011 16:03

Please take this poll to determine rule changes for Game 2.

Description of rule change proposals )

alliances, poll, ff_classchange, ultima_arena

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breyzyyin May 23 2011, 02:33:34 UTC
I have to agree with you here. ♥ I do feel bad that people who maybe aren't familiar with a game feel like they have a hard time reading and/or voting on entries associated with it, and I can understand being afraid to read a synopsis of a game for fear of spoilers...but, at the same time, I don't necessarily feel it is fair to tell people they can't write about what they want to write about either. I mean, for submissions (or at least for me, at any rate!), I think people have an easier time writing what comes to mind first for a given challenge and what they're familiar with: to restrict the games they can write for a given challenge almost seems like stifling the creative process in a way.

I know it can be hard to judge fics based off of games one doesn't know, but I think it is possible so long as you focus on how it is written (case in point...I have voted for FFV and FFVI fics, and I haven't played either game yet and I even comment on fics for those games over at MWS). I don't think it is simply a matter of context as I've read fics for games I have played where I kind of thought the characters were OOC, but I could still appreciate how the fic was written. I guess I'm strange in that I don't necessarily feel like you need to really associate the original story with a fan fic since it is often up to the fan fic author's interpretation and their own thoughts on the game (for example, a lot of authors like to write about pairings that aren't in the actual game itself or do AU plots, which would take out the context of the original story anyways).

If the restrictions do take place, I only feel it would be fair to have challenges devoted to all of the games in the series instead of just the most popular ones. Still, I fear that restricting them will limit not only the number of submissions to given challenges, but will also limit voting as well since most people will not vote on what they're not familiar with (especially if they're separated from the other titles).

Unfortunately, the more obscure titles will probably get overlooked regardless as I've noticed that with graphic comms as well...but, I guess I'm not sure it is fair to tell people they can't write or make graphics for what they like since this is an overall FF comm. I know I've submitted obscure FF game based fan fiction here for challenges (it is actually the majority of what I write, oddly enough!) and I know that I'm probably not going to get that many votes for them partially just because of that, but I write them because that's what first pops into my head for the challenge prompts at that time and I have fun writing them.

Would I have fun writing for, say, a FFVIII-based challenge? Sure! :) I've actually written one for a prompt here and had fun with it, but that's because the idea just came to me naturally. I'm not sure how often that would be the case for every game-specific challenge though (and then there would be the ones I haven't played that I wouldn't be comfortable writing about, because it is nearly impossible to WRITE for a game you don't know...even with a plot synopsis as aid). That would be a problem with the game restrictions too, because it would be impossible to do every single game in a round, so that runs the risk of limiting what someone can submit to.

I apologize if this comes across as me complaining! Truthfully, I can see where everyone is coming from here: both the writer and the voter have very different reasons for why they write or vote for something, and I think there's very sound reasoning behind voting for what you're more familiar with for a few voters...as I know most individuals gravitate towards what is familiar even if they can see that something is well-written because they already have an idea about the characters in their minds. ...I'm just saying my own thoughts as someone who has written a lot for the fan fic challenges and try to explain why I sometimes write for the more obscure games. Perhaps dividing the challenges as thedrowned suggested would be an ideal solution, although I would definitely leave that decision to the very capable mods here. ♥ XD

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arivess May 23 2011, 02:58:03 UTC
*nods* I think it's kinda like this, yeah. When I write for obscure games, I'm not expecting people to pick them. I know people won't unless they're spectacular. But I want to write them, y'know? So, it's not like I'm saying anyone has to vote for them if they don't know them. Votes can happen for any reason, so what does it happen what the reason is?

And I was just thinking, the other problem is, if you start restricting fandoms, then you might as well start restricting pairings, too. Because given the same fandom and similar qualities of writing, people are going to go for fandoms they like more. Or characters they like more. Things like that.

People are always going to like something for some reason or other. So, if we're knowingly and willingly creating things we know not many people will appreciate, what's wrong with that?

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breyzyyin May 23 2011, 04:56:49 UTC
Yes, exactly...I like writing what I want to write at a given moment, so regardless if it is for an obscure game or for a more popular one--if I have an idea, I'm going to give it a shot and enjoy myself! Since votes can happen for any reason, I'm okay with that. :D

...I can understand that concern too. Pairing and character restrictions could easily start happening as well if games are restricted (and people will probably gravitate more towards the characters or pairings they themselves personally like and perhaps not pay attention to other entries as much).

People are always going to like something for some reason or other. So, if we're knowingly and willingly creating things we know not many people will appreciate, what's wrong with that?
~I think that's a very good point! :D

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the_404_error May 23 2011, 08:17:25 UTC
I'm in agreement with this. Even if a contest were to only have FFIX characters involved, it's highly likely that a fic or icon about Quina or Eiko is more likely to be overlooked than one about Vivi or Zidane. Favoritism will always play a small part for those who vote that way now anyway.

... and, as I said in an earlier thread, it's not really too hard for me to put aside bias and vote based on content otherwise? I even remember voting for a Squall/Rinoa fic for the Valentine challenge, and I can think of nothing in FF I should dislike more.

I also definitely agree that it would limit the already low number of entries. While I marked games like VII in that ultima_arena poll, it's been ages since I've played it, so I wouldn't feel comfortable writing a fic about it... nor would I really have any desire to.

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breyzyyin May 23 2011, 15:39:32 UTC
I agree! I think favoritism is just unfortunately a reality of voting for quite a few people (not everyone does it, and I know quite a few awesome people who don't here at ff_land ♥), but I think that there will always be a small amount of people who will tend to gravitate and vote more towards characters and games that they personally like more. And I think writing restrictions just kind of opens up more of a "playing to favoritism" kind of mindset when it comes to other aspects of fic writing too: if someone writes a story about a person's least favorite character or pairing from FFVII for example, does that automatically mean that the story won't be worth considering either? To some, that might BE a case where they're not going to appreciate the story or vote on it...but to others they will look at it and maybe even take more appreciation of it as putting a new light on something for them or just take into account that it is very well-written. I think the reasons why people vote vary greatly from person to person, so I'm not entirely sure there's any one solution to that conundrum.

...I could see giving up bias to be extremely hard for some, unfortunately I think that's just a reality of fandom stuff in general. But I've honestly been impressed so far with non-super-popular characters or games that I have seen exhibited in challenges and getting votes. If someone honestly gets inspired to write a story about ANY game or character, I think that's something that they should feel free to write and be happy submitting.

If you ask me to write about even a game that I maybe have written for in the past but for whatever reason just don't have as much of a desire to do so now (for instance, I tend to find it harder to write for FFVII...I did it recently for the letter challenge, but it was only because that was honestly the first idea that popped into my head for that challenge--if I was TOLD that I could only write for FFVII, I would probably be having a hard time of it since I normally don't get inspired to write about that world...and if I was told to write a story about a game I haven't played, I'd just not submit and then I'd feel guilty about losing points that way). I think personally it would really limit the amount of entries in challenges to begin with for that very reason: people won't write for games they haven't played or they don't feel inspired to write about...and people are probably not going to vote in the challenges that are focused on games they're not interested in themselves (I could so see a challenge for Crystal Chronicles getting pretty much ignored on both fronts, for instance).

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the_404_error May 23 2011, 20:49:10 UTC
Ah, yes, I'm positive a lot of people here wouldn't vote by favoritism, but if even a small number do, they're going to anyway.

To some, that might BE a case where they're not going to appreciate the story or vote on it...but to others they will look at it and maybe even take more appreciation of it as putting a new light on something for them or just take into account that it is very well-written.

Yes, and I think since the majority don't just skip over something they don't like or recognize, it shouldn't be too much of a problem... however, in close challenges (which almost all of them end up being, when looking at the numbers), those few voters voting for what they know or like the best can tip it over and push a possibly better written fic/better graphic out of the running. I really don't see how it's possible to fix this beyond reminding people to take into consideration more than just their favorite characters...

If someone honestly gets inspired to write a story about ANY game or character, I think that's something that they should feel free to write and be happy submitting.

Yes, this pretty much. If I write something for IV or II, I don't expect many people to read it (and I certainly don't expect it to win), but as long as I enjoyed writing it and at least one or two other people enjoyed it, it doesn't matter too much. Winning is fun for sure, but it's not the only factor... and then I end up pleasantly surprised if I do end up placing with something from a not-extremely-popular game. XD

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cowturtle May 23 2011, 18:07:49 UTC

And I was just thinking, the other problem is, if you start restricting fandoms, then you might as well start restricting pairings, too. Because given the same fandom and similar qualities of writing, people are going to go for fandoms they like more. Or characters they like more. Things like that.

I have to disagree with that. If I've played through an entire game (or read the whole thing online, however people chose to get the story) then I know all of the characters and can understand any story concerning them. For instance, I love Fran and Balthier from FFXII, but don't really like Penelo. It's not that there's no way I would ever vote for a Penelo fic. Someone could write something about her that could make me see a scene with her as being different, or pair her up with someone I never imagined her with in a different way. The point is that I would be able to understand her, her feelings, her world, etc, and thus be aware of how cool a fic is.

On the other hand, I've never played FFII. So, let's say there's a story about Character X and he's looking out the window, contemplating the beautiful Character Y. I think it's a pretty ok-writting fic. No spelling errors or anything, but meh. It's about a guy watching a beautiful girl. It's been done. So I vote on something else. Secretly, though, X was actually Y's stalker in the game, and this is the point in the game right before he leaps from the window to assassinate her. It's the act that will later ultimately make him switch over to the good guys' side right before the epic last battle. Well, I probably would've voted for that fic, had I known the context of what I was witnessing.

I will always know when Penelo is well-written and when an FFXII story is good because I've played it and understand the game and characters. An FFII fic might be well-written but not strike me as terribly interesting because I don't know the story of the game.

In the end, if someone paired Penelo with Balthier I might not like the pairing, but at least I would be able to understand the characters, maybe why they ended up together, and understand the little things that go unsaid between them. The pairing doesn't matter, because I understand the game. The difference is that unless you write me a really blunt FFII fic, I'm probably not going to get your point. If you want to write something subtle-yet-amazing, I'm not going to get it and I'll probably vote for something else simply because I understand it better. I don't think that fair to the writer who puts a lot of time and effort into crafting a really near plot.

Urm. I hope that all made sense. :S

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arivess May 23 2011, 18:30:33 UTC
I understand the concern there, but if it's unfair to anyone, it's unfair to the person who wrote the obscure FFII fic, in this example, right? But whoever writes that is not going to assume everyone will know what they're talking about. They'll know most people and will vote for the FFXII fic instead. But they still chose to write FFII instead of XII, knowing they'll get less entries because of game. So I don't see what's wrong with it.

When I write FFXI fics, for example, I know no one is going to know what I'm talking about aside from Breyzy and Yin. But I feel the prompt lends itself to this specific idea really well, and I know Breyzy and Yin will appreciate it, and that's all the reward I need, so to speak. I'm not asking anyone to understand it, and it's okay if they don't.

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cowturtle May 23 2011, 18:41:35 UTC
But if the case is that it's unfair to the author of the FFII fic, then that seems to me all the more reason to give those authors more chances to be able to win a competition. I know that it's not impossible for an FFII author to win one of these competitions, but it sure seems less likely. The restrictions, if done properly, would likely yield roughly the same number of votes for obscure fics as they do now(because people who play those games, as well as people who are cool with reading fics from any games will both read/vote for them). It just seems to me that if would be more fair with the restrictions, or that it would put people on more equal footing, if that makes sense.

Also, if what you're saying about writing obscure fics is true for all of the writers of those fics, then the people who are most bothered by this are the voters, who feel like they either can't vote or like the stuff that they're reading doesn't matter to them. Again, adding restrictions would mean that voters could vote, at the very least, more confidently and possibly with more frequency (if they don't vote during competitions where there are a lot of fics for games that they don't play).

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arivess May 23 2011, 18:45:43 UTC
But the problem is the number of "obscure" games.

We have mainstream: VII, VIII, X, XII, and XIII

We have kinda-obscure-but-decently-well-known: IV, V, VI, IX, FFT

And then everything else falls under "obscure", pretty much, which is some 20 games. :\ And most people aren't going to know all of them.

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cowturtle May 23 2011, 19:40:26 UTC
Sorry, I'm just a little confused by what you mean. Do you mean that due to the number of obscure games, restrictions would be difficult, or...? :S

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arivess May 23 2011, 19:43:01 UTC
Kind of. I mean like, for the obscure games, there are some 10 games that only 1-2 people have played. So the exact same problem would be present whether they're in a separate category or not.

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cowturtle May 23 2011, 20:38:30 UTC
Yeah, I see what you mean now. Eilia were just having a discussion about it.

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thedrowned May 23 2011, 03:10:10 UTC
I dislike the idea that a cleverly-made icon with, say, Luso on it, wouldn't get picked over an unappealing icon with Squall on it. I strongly believe creativity, structure, and good-heartedness speak to the work more than a favourite character. Even an image program the calibre of MS Paint could make an icon worth voting if the user made it creatively and we judge it on its respect to the prompt.

If I could write a lovely Valentine's story with characters no one knew about, I would hope they'd vote on the way I'd written it, rather than skipping over it because it's got people like Sherlotta or Delita in it.

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breyzyyin May 23 2011, 05:04:12 UTC
I agree in a way...I do feel bad that favoritism towards certain games or characters can sometimes sway votes or cause certain comments (I do know that if someone does graphics in an icon comm for a lesser-known game, they are less likely to receive as much comments as a more popular title would)--though I definitely hope that most would vote purely on the creative intent of the maker either in regards to a fan fic or an icon. I know that a lot of people like icons with Photoshop filters and the like...but I have been JUST as impressed (if not more) by some of the more simple icons that weren't made in fancy programs and just have a neat crop or an interesting color scheme (Breyzy uses FastStone and Gimp for her icons, and considering how I have hardly any graphics-skills...I'm always surprised by how well her icons can turn out despite the fact that she's using "simpler" programs). I think judging an entry in respect to the prompt that it is being created for is the best way to handle voting for any challenge be it a writing or graphics one: it shouldn't matter the game or character.

If I could write a lovely Valentine's story with characters no one knew about, I would hope they'd vote on the way I'd written it, rather than skipping over it because it's got people like Sherlotta or Delita in it.
~I would hope so too! ♥ And there have been a few occasions here at ff_land where I have been pleasantly surprised in that regard. It really just depends on how people interpret an entry. :)

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the_404_error May 23 2011, 08:40:31 UTC
To be fair, I don't know many people who use photoshop filters on icons? I know I usually just deal with the color alterations (levels, curves, etc), and the only filters I use are blur and sharpen, which many other programs have as well. I'm always impressed by icons in really simple programs, but I believe most programs (aside from MS Paint, and if anyone can do anything with that, they're amazing by default) now have levels and the like, so I'm not sure if the program is too much of a factor in voting.

Although now that it has been mentioned, I was thinking back... and I don't remember seeing many obscure characters winning icon challenges. It may just be coincidence, but I'd be less opposed to having a game restriction on icon challenges than on fanfiction. I'm still not necessarily for the idea, but it wouldn't bother me when it comes to graphics as no prior knowledge is necessary in most cases.

(I do always like Breyzy's cropping and coloring, by the way~ In that Amano art one, I remember voting for one of hers from FFI (?) that I loved the cropping on, but it didn't place... which could be used as an example of the above.)

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