Personally, I like the idea of a Soldier and Dragoon reworking...since those seem to be the two teams that have kind of a hard time getting defined in terms of characters: for Dragoons the character pool is always very limited (and often gets equated with more popular characters like Kain who aren't necessarily the best overall representation of the class) and for Soldiers, it is almost the opposite and there's *too* wide of a definition...often enough, I see a lot of "I can see you in both Dragoon and Soldier" when people are getting votes for one or the other, so having a more defined character list would probably work well for both teams.
I definitely think putting a few more characters in the Dragoon category makes a lot of sense, and possibly even doing a "Dragoon + Knight/Samurai" would give people more of a placing idea when voting on applications. That being said, I fear it would also take away from potential Soldiers since many seem to use Knight characters when voting for Soldiers since so many of the Knight characters are in military organizations in the games...both teams are pretty small in terms of active members, so I'm not sure doing anything that might risk limiting the potential amount of newcomers for either team would necessarily be fair.
Since characters such as Beatrix and Cecil (two Paladins) are often used as examples when people vote Soldier (and I'm definitely *for* reworking the list to include Ramza and Cecil since most of us on Team Soldier seem to consider them part of the characters that "define" the class)...I wonder if it wouldn't be beneficial to include "Soldier + Paladin" for a rework as well. The Paladin characters like Beatrix and Cecil definitely have personality traits in common with other Soldier characters such as Ramza and Marche, so it would further separate and define how the Dragoon and Soldier teams are different, especially if "Dragoon + Knight/Samurai" ends up happening. There would still be Knight/Samurai characters such as Basch (ignoring his RW job), Onion Knight, Gabranth, Auron, Cyan, and Agrias for the Dragoons if that were the case...but Paladins/Holy Knights such as Frimelda, Cecil, and Beatrix would further showcase the differences between the Soldier and Dragoon classes as they offer very different personalities. That way people will know which Knight characters fit more for Dragoons and which would fit more for Soldiers.
...I hope that made sense? I was just thinking of a common trend I notice when people vote either Dragoon and Soldier, and I could see that being confusing if a character like Cecil is added to the Soldier list but the Dragoons get the "+ Knight" rework too. I do think further defining the two job classes and what characters go into them would be very helpful! ♥
I think you have a good point. Expanding Soldier & Dragoon into the Samurai/Knight/Paladin space is a good idea but it has to be handled carefully because there's already a lot of confusion/conflation going on with those two classes and, unless we're VERY clear on who goes into what class, it will just get worse!
So yeah, I'm okay with adding Paladin to Soldiers, but there will be kind of an ambiguity with Agrias (Holy Knight) and Basch (Paladin in RW), and I'm not sure whether they fit Soldier or Dragoon better. I'm kind of curious which characters people think are definitely Dragoon-like and which characters are definitely Soldier-like, and which ones are in-between enough that they shouldn't be given to either. Maybe a more detailed poll will be needed here?
Some of my own thoughts, which may not be very accurate:
Soldiers -- Tend to be associated with the military, yet personality-wise tend to be independent leaders who make decisions and work for a wider good (i.e. saving the world as a whole) rather than serve one person loyally. I also think of Soldiers as being more outgoing, flexible, and energetic than Dragoons who are more calm and reserved.
Dragoons -- While Kain is strongly associated with the military, later Dragoons (Cid, Fang, Kimahri) tend to be distant from/unrelated to the military, and instead have a particular person or a more narrow cause they're dedicated to. In this sense, I think Auron and Cyan fit here naturally because they work alone but have bound themselves to a certain cause.
Agrias I think fits under either because at the beginning of the game she's very focused on Ovelia and is more a pure Knight, but over time she becomes part of a bigger group and more Soldier-like in her role. So I don't know what to do with her.
Basch and Beatrix I don't know enough about to argue where they fit. Basch seems to me to have kind of a quiet/serious/loyal personality so maybe Dragoon? I don't know.
Beatrix is an interesting mixture of those two. Her personality is certainly more Dragoon, but at the same time, she is heavily military-minded, since she's the General of all of Alexandria's forces. It could be argued that she's that way because of her devotion to her queen and country, which then switches to devotion to Garnet in the latter half of the game.
I really don't know what to do with the Paladins, honestly. Cecil is a good fit for Soldier because his Dark Knight/Paladin sides cancel each other out, I think, but Agrias and Beatrix are a LOT more hazy.
Basch I would put with Dragoons, I think, because he has the personality and the devotion to one person/cause (Ashe, then Larsa).
I agree! ♥ There's a lot of confusion with the two classes already, and that's my reasoning for bringing this up at all (so I apologize if I'm adding to it!)...because I fear adding Dragoon + Knight/Samurai might make the definition for Soldier hazy if there's not something else helping to define that team as well.
Personally, I see Agrias and Basch as kind of fitting more for the Dragoon + Knight category, even just in terms of their abilities in Tactics and RW respectively. They don't have nearly the same amount of healing or protective abilities like Cover that other Paladins such as Cecil, Beatrix, and Frimelda have...and I definitely see their personalities fitting more for the definition that you gave for Dragoons overall. While they're technically in military organizations, Basch tends to be more dedicated to one leader or cause (Ashe, and later Larsa) and Agrias is overall more loyal to Ovelia (even her reasoning for joining with Ramza's group is because she feels it is in Ovelia's best interest given what happens in the story, which is especially shown in the PSP version much later in the game). Both characters do things for the greater good, but they always consider the well-being of the people they feel they are protecting in the process too (sort of like Fang, actually!).
With Cecil, Beatrix, and Frimelda...I see them leaning more towards your definition for Soldier. Both Cecil and Beatrix are both in the military and are loyal to it (and feel conflicted when there is something in the military that goes against their viewpoints of what is right). More often than not, they want to do what they feel is for the greater good and will often sacrifice in their own ways something to achieve that (whether it be their personal beliefs or morals or even their positions in the military itself. With Beatrix, she even decided to go with Garnet because she viewed her as being more for the greater good despite her standing with the queen...and Cecil's whole story fits with that definition). There's not a ton of Paladin characters in the games, but I kind of view them as being more-or-less Soldier-y in how they approach things.
So, basically...my thoughts would be personally: Agrias and Basch are more Dragoon-like based off of your description and their abilities in game which aren't 100% as focused on Cover and healing others as most of the other Paladins are. Cecil and Beatrix...I'd lean more towards Soldier, just given how their stories play out and their actual abilities in game that lean more towards the Soldier definition (and, randomly, I've always considered Beatrix a Soldier and often use her for Soldier votes...and I know at least one other person on our team has done the same. So maybe that's just more of my personal bias talking, lolz).
I definitely think putting a few more characters in the Dragoon category makes a lot of sense, and possibly even doing a "Dragoon + Knight/Samurai" would give people more of a placing idea when voting on applications. That being said, I fear it would also take away from potential Soldiers since many seem to use Knight characters when voting for Soldiers since so many of the Knight characters are in military organizations in the games...both teams are pretty small in terms of active members, so I'm not sure doing anything that might risk limiting the potential amount of newcomers for either team would necessarily be fair.
Since characters such as Beatrix and Cecil (two Paladins) are often used as examples when people vote Soldier (and I'm definitely *for* reworking the list to include Ramza and Cecil since most of us on Team Soldier seem to consider them part of the characters that "define" the class)...I wonder if it wouldn't be beneficial to include "Soldier + Paladin" for a rework as well. The Paladin characters like Beatrix and Cecil definitely have personality traits in common with other Soldier characters such as Ramza and Marche, so it would further separate and define how the Dragoon and Soldier teams are different, especially if "Dragoon + Knight/Samurai" ends up happening. There would still be Knight/Samurai characters such as Basch (ignoring his RW job), Onion Knight, Gabranth, Auron, Cyan, and Agrias for the Dragoons if that were the case...but Paladins/Holy Knights such as Frimelda, Cecil, and Beatrix would further showcase the differences between the Soldier and Dragoon classes as they offer very different personalities. That way people will know which Knight characters fit more for Dragoons and which would fit more for Soldiers.
...I hope that made sense? I was just thinking of a common trend I notice when people vote either Dragoon and Soldier, and I could see that being confusing if a character like Cecil is added to the Soldier list but the Dragoons get the "+ Knight" rework too. I do think further defining the two job classes and what characters go into them would be very helpful! ♥
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So yeah, I'm okay with adding Paladin to Soldiers, but there will be kind of an ambiguity with Agrias (Holy Knight) and Basch (Paladin in RW), and I'm not sure whether they fit Soldier or Dragoon better. I'm kind of curious which characters people think are definitely Dragoon-like and which characters are definitely Soldier-like, and which ones are in-between enough that they shouldn't be given to either. Maybe a more detailed poll will be needed here?
Some of my own thoughts, which may not be very accurate:
Soldiers -- Tend to be associated with the military, yet personality-wise tend to be independent leaders who make decisions and work for a wider good (i.e. saving the world as a whole) rather than serve one person loyally. I also think of Soldiers as being more outgoing, flexible, and energetic than Dragoons who are more calm and reserved.
Dragoons -- While Kain is strongly associated with the military, later Dragoons (Cid, Fang, Kimahri) tend to be distant from/unrelated to the military, and instead have a particular person or a more narrow cause they're dedicated to. In this sense, I think Auron and Cyan fit here naturally because they work alone but have bound themselves to a certain cause.
Agrias I think fits under either because at the beginning of the game she's very focused on Ovelia and is more a pure Knight, but over time she becomes part of a bigger group and more Soldier-like in her role. So I don't know what to do with her.
Basch and Beatrix I don't know enough about to argue where they fit. Basch seems to me to have kind of a quiet/serious/loyal personality so maybe Dragoon? I don't know.
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I really don't know what to do with the Paladins, honestly. Cecil is a good fit for Soldier because his Dark Knight/Paladin sides cancel each other out, I think, but Agrias and Beatrix are a LOT more hazy.
Basch I would put with Dragoons, I think, because he has the personality and the devotion to one person/cause (Ashe, then Larsa).
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Personally, I see Agrias and Basch as kind of fitting more for the Dragoon + Knight category, even just in terms of their abilities in Tactics and RW respectively. They don't have nearly the same amount of healing or protective abilities like Cover that other Paladins such as Cecil, Beatrix, and Frimelda have...and I definitely see their personalities fitting more for the definition that you gave for Dragoons overall. While they're technically in military organizations, Basch tends to be more dedicated to one leader or cause (Ashe, and later Larsa) and Agrias is overall more loyal to Ovelia (even her reasoning for joining with Ramza's group is because she feels it is in Ovelia's best interest given what happens in the story, which is especially shown in the PSP version much later in the game). Both characters do things for the greater good, but they always consider the well-being of the people they feel they are protecting in the process too (sort of like Fang, actually!).
With Cecil, Beatrix, and Frimelda...I see them leaning more towards your definition for Soldier. Both Cecil and Beatrix are both in the military and are loyal to it (and feel conflicted when there is something in the military that goes against their viewpoints of what is right). More often than not, they want to do what they feel is for the greater good and will often sacrifice in their own ways something to achieve that (whether it be their personal beliefs or morals or even their positions in the military itself. With Beatrix, she even decided to go with Garnet because she viewed her as being more for the greater good despite her standing with the queen...and Cecil's whole story fits with that definition). There's not a ton of Paladin characters in the games, but I kind of view them as being more-or-less Soldier-y in how they approach things.
So, basically...my thoughts would be personally: Agrias and Basch are more Dragoon-like based off of your description and their abilities in game which aren't 100% as focused on Cover and healing others as most of the other Paladins are. Cecil and Beatrix...I'd lean more towards Soldier, just given how their stories play out and their actual abilities in game that lean more towards the Soldier definition (and, randomly, I've always considered Beatrix a Soldier and often use her for Soldier votes...and I know at least one other person on our team has done the same. So maybe that's just more of my personal bias talking, lolz).
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