I suck and didn't get to the other post in time, so here's some wordswordswords:
This chapter of the game (everything from the Gold Saucer revisited to hitting Mideel) is my favourite. Probably because it's the most plotty and twisty and gives me the most to really chew on - and I do think there's plenty to chew on.
I didn't get to comment on the Aeris' death stuff for last week but honestly I think everyone said everything I was going to say, short of this: I think she knew. I'll bring this up later, though, as it will make more sense to.
In this section I feel so fucking terrible for Tifa because everything is just falling apart. Unlike Cloud she really is powerless to stop any of it - not that I fault Cloud for breaking down when he did. But we see him grieve openly for Aeris and he's had an endless amount of I-have-to-settle-the-score speeches and Tifa, Tifa doesn't talk, to the point that it's almost surprising (but not really) when she pops up saying she wants to be a part of everything.
The scene with Sephiroth... I'm pretty sure this is where they pulled all of his compilation behaviour from. While I was playing this my sister commented on how strange it was that nobody had any trouble just standing around talking, and it is kind of true - they really do give him plenty of time to say his piece, don't they?
Anyway - my reading of the scene is as such: Sephiroth has figured out who the fuck Cloud is (he did this some time ago), and that he's the best candidate for getting the black materia, and now he just needs to get Cloud into a position where he'll fork it over in a fit of soul-crushing despair. So, he lies. Half-lies. Lies enough to plant some ideas and entertain Tifa's fears enough that she can't completely deny it.
Cloud's reaction... I really love it. He's so nonchalant. Tifa's freaking out, Sephiroth's goading Cloud (and telling him not to blame Tifa, wat), Cloud is insisting that it's all just illusions, that none of it matters, that he's sure that everything is fine, everything is fine, everything is fine, and then he meets Hojo and the strong front just breaks down.
I don't know how he ends up the ceiling. That is kind of weird. But I think it kind of adds to the creepiness of the scene so I won't ask too many questions. There's no voice acting but I can't help but read all of his lines here with such despair (especially when he calls out to Sephiroth to tell him he's there). It is kind of a beautiful mixture of fucked up and sad.
There's some other stuff, here - WEAPON. I'm of two minds about WEAPON. On the one hand, I like reinforcing the idea that the planet is not necessarily friendly to humans, and is even actively hostile. On the other hand, gundams are not the design choice I would have made. I like Barret's lines in Gaea's cliff about this, too - the point he makes about the planet having the capacity to be just as harsh, desolate and unfeeling is a good one, and eliminates some of the black-and-white nature-v.-technology ideology we've received up to this point.
The Promised Land - There's always been some debate over what and where it is. Sephiroth said he wanted to go to the promised land, Rufus and Hojo sought it, and everyone said Aeris would lead them, and they wound up here. This is hardly a land of supreme happiness, however, and I think it's vastly more likely the promised land is a metaphysical place, some kind of afterlife.
Of course in Icicle Inn we've also got the data files on Jenova, Ifalna and Gast. We learn that Jenova is like Lavos' cousin and that Gast is Aeris' father. I was talking to bofoddity over the possibility that she knew this earlier - personal headcanon dictates that she did and kept quiet on it. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Oh, definitely. Maybe she didn't know exactly how it was going to happen, but she knew that a sacrifice had to be made.
In this section I feel so fucking terrible for Tifa because everything is just falling apart. Unlike Cloud she really is powerless to stop any of it - not that I fault Cloud for breaking down when he did. But we see him grieve openly for Aeris and he's had an endless amount of I-have-to-settle-the-score speeches and Tifa, Tifa doesn't talk, to the point that it's almost surprising (but not really) when she pops up saying she wants to be a part of everything.
It really starts off with Tifa trying to quietly support Cloud from the background, and deferring to him like the other party members, but she slowly realises - though at a pace too slow to help Cloud before he gives Sephiroth the black materia - that she needs to start pushing Cloud in the right direction, and even briefly becomes a leader in her own right.
Though it amuses me that she has been pushing Cloud in various directions before in the story - but only when teamed up with Aeris. When Aeris died, did she lose the friend that gave her the confidence to push the boys around?
There's some other stuff, here - WEAPON. I'm of two minds about WEAPON. On the one hand, I like reinforcing the idea that the planet is not necessarily friendly to humans, and is even actively hostile. On the other hand, gundams are not the design choice I would have made.
I saw them as more of the Godzilla type monsters, which is somewhat fitting from the environmental message comparisons.
I feel so bad for Tifa too. I remember when they're all gathered in the ghost hotel and she's trying to comfort Red XIII who's afraid he's going to go mad because Hojo gave him a tattoo (I feel bad for him too, poor guy), she tells him to stay strong and then has to get a little tougher when he's still doubting himself. SHE'S DOING HER BEST GUYS.
I really need to pick up the pace today, I'm still not at the end of disc 1 yet.
I didn't get to comment on the Aeris' death stuff for last week but honestly I think everyone said everything I was going to say, short of this: I think she knew. I'll bring this up later, though, as it will make more sense to.
This is hard for me - the first time I played I thought for sure she knew, but now I'm sympathetic toward Tifa's comments that Aeris talked about the future more than anyone and didn't know she was going to die. I think maybe she knew the risks, but I think I'm Team Aeris-Wanted-To-Live. Of course, I sort of imagine that as she prayed for Holy, she was... "enlightened", if you will, and maybe past the point of caring. It's hard to say, though, I'd be interested in seeing what you have to say about this.
I don't think it's as clearcut as Aeris Wanted to Live or Aeris Wanted To Die. Of course Aeris wanted to live - but I think she knew that she wasn't going to, or at least that it was very likely that she wasn't going to. I don't think she knew from the very beginning, either. She found out at Cosmo Canyon or Temple of the Ancients.
When you revisit the city of the ancients later on they talk about how Holy works in all of these vague and uncertain terms... Aeris' prayer needs to reach the planet, Sephiroth is holding it back. It's a prayer, how could that possibly work? Her spirit energy, though, that's another story.
Agreed on her not knowing. I think Aerith knew it was certainly risky, but I always believe she's sincere when she says "I'll come back", and not in the "my face appears in the final shots" kind of way. Also because she was so vague on what she was doing, I honestly don't think she knew for sure what it was until she got there.
For me, her comments in the game strongly suggest that she was planning on coming back. I think it's arguable whether or not she knew she was going to die as she was praying on the platform, but I don't think she felt she was going off to her death when she was talking to Cloud in the dream sequence. And let's not forget that it was set up in direct contrast to Cait Sith's death, where he sacrificed himself and then came back to life a hero. Aeris is just murdered, suddenly and brutally.
And the game never really supports the "Holy requires a sacrifice" fan theory that seems so popular. I mean, I know it's nice to think that her death wasn't in vain and that she knew she had to die to save the world blah blah blah, but I think that kind of thinking completely ignores the message the game is trying to present. Nomura and Kitase have always been pretty clear that her death wasn't meant to be a dramatic Hollywood affair where she sacrifices herself to save her loved ones.
"In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood." - Yoshinori Kitase
"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?" - Tetsuya Nomura
"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?" - Tetsuya Nomura
It's a shame that they apparently forgot about this philosophy when they made Crisis Core. SIGH
I must've been the only one here to really enjoy Crisis Core, and I don't think they ruined Zack's death in it. Sure, it was hero'd up a lot, but it had to be... he was the protagonist of the game.
It still had the tragic elements of him dying right within sight of his destination, and it sort of added in a somewhat selfish aspect to his death that fit with the twisted notion of hero that the FF7 world has. Even when dying, he still thinks that being a hero is about fame, honour and power, and he is sort of trying to impose himself on Cloud there. It then takes Cloud to destroy the Shinra image, and show people what a real hero is.
There were a lot of things I enjoyed about Crisis Core. I'd easily place it within my top 10 favorite games. The ending really was fantastic, and I loved how they incorporated the DMW scenes.
But I feel like Zack's death in FF7 was ultimately a much more powerful scene. He fights briefly and then gets shot down and dies. No dramatic speeches. No taking on the entire Shinra army. No meeting up with mentors or flying into the light. No weepy background music. No passing on his legacy. No goodbyes. The impact of the scene in the original game is built entirely around the brutality of sudden and merciless death. And it works.
Plus, I think CC takes the message and tone of the original game and completely ignores it. FF7 is about fighting to survive even when you're screwed up in the head. It's about actively improving the world around you. When Zack dies in FF7 he doesn't say he's going to die so Cloud can live or any crap like that. He's fighting so they both can make it to Midgar, but he doesn't make it. CC is about sacrificing yourself for others, and giving up when you screw up. Because the only people in CC that DO ever screw up are the bad guys. It's a game about people who are passive targets of the action going on around them.
CC is a great game, but I have major issues with some of the philosophical choices they made. They really didn't keep things consistent.
Heh, I feel the complete opposite, I didn't really enjoy Crisis Core and the ending was just too sappy and melodramatic (Angeal and Zack flying up to heaven oh my god) for me to like even on a cheesy level. A game protagonist doesn't necessarily have to or should play the hero role either, at least not in the generic way it was presented in Crisis Core.
I pretty much agree with personasystem, and I think Zack's death in Crisis Core really illustrates the difference between Squaresoft's method of storytelling and how Square-Enix does it now, especially in their cutscenes.
This chapter of the game (everything from the Gold Saucer revisited to hitting Mideel) is my favourite. Probably because it's the most plotty and twisty and gives me the most to really chew on - and I do think there's plenty to chew on.
I didn't get to comment on the Aeris' death stuff for last week but honestly I think everyone said everything I was going to say, short of this: I think she knew. I'll bring this up later, though, as it will make more sense to.
In this section I feel so fucking terrible for Tifa because everything is just falling apart. Unlike Cloud she really is powerless to stop any of it - not that I fault Cloud for breaking down when he did. But we see him grieve openly for Aeris and he's had an endless amount of I-have-to-settle-the-score speeches and Tifa, Tifa doesn't talk, to the point that it's almost surprising (but not really) when she pops up saying she wants to be a part of everything.
The scene with Sephiroth... I'm pretty sure this is where they pulled all of his compilation behaviour from. While I was playing this my sister commented on how strange it was that nobody had any trouble just standing around talking, and it is kind of true - they really do give him plenty of time to say his piece, don't they?
Anyway - my reading of the scene is as such: Sephiroth has figured out who the fuck Cloud is (he did this some time ago), and that he's the best candidate for getting the black materia, and now he just needs to get Cloud into a position where he'll fork it over in a fit of soul-crushing despair. So, he lies. Half-lies. Lies enough to plant some ideas and entertain Tifa's fears enough that she can't completely deny it.
Cloud's reaction... I really love it. He's so nonchalant. Tifa's freaking out, Sephiroth's goading Cloud (and telling him not to blame Tifa, wat), Cloud is insisting that it's all just illusions, that none of it matters, that he's sure that everything is fine, everything is fine, everything is fine, and then he meets Hojo and the strong front just breaks down.
I don't know how he ends up the ceiling. That is kind of weird. But I think it kind of adds to the creepiness of the scene so I won't ask too many questions. There's no voice acting but I can't help but read all of his lines here with such despair (especially when he calls out to Sephiroth to tell him he's there). It is kind of a beautiful mixture of fucked up and sad.
There's some other stuff, here - WEAPON. I'm of two minds about WEAPON. On the one hand, I like reinforcing the idea that the planet is not necessarily friendly to humans, and is even actively hostile. On the other hand, gundams are not the design choice I would have made. I like Barret's lines in Gaea's cliff about this, too - the point he makes about the planet having the capacity to be just as harsh, desolate and unfeeling is a good one, and eliminates some of the black-and-white nature-v.-technology ideology we've received up to this point.
The Promised Land - There's always been some debate over what and where it is. Sephiroth said he wanted to go to the promised land, Rufus and Hojo sought it, and everyone said Aeris would lead them, and they wound up here. This is hardly a land of supreme happiness, however, and I think it's vastly more likely the promised land is a metaphysical place, some kind of afterlife.
Of course in Icicle Inn we've also got the data files on Jenova, Ifalna and Gast. We learn that Jenova is like Lavos' cousin and that Gast is Aeris' father. I was talking to bofoddity over the possibility that she knew this earlier - personal headcanon dictates that she did and kept quiet on it. Anyone else want to weigh in?
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Oh, definitely. Maybe she didn't know exactly how it was going to happen, but she knew that a sacrifice had to be made.
In this section I feel so fucking terrible for Tifa because everything is just falling apart. Unlike Cloud she really is powerless to stop any of it - not that I fault Cloud for breaking down when he did. But we see him grieve openly for Aeris and he's had an endless amount of I-have-to-settle-the-score speeches and Tifa, Tifa doesn't talk, to the point that it's almost surprising (but not really) when she pops up saying she wants to be a part of everything.
It really starts off with Tifa trying to quietly support Cloud from the background, and deferring to him like the other party members, but she slowly realises - though at a pace too slow to help Cloud before he gives Sephiroth the black materia - that she needs to start pushing Cloud in the right direction, and even briefly becomes a leader in her own right.
Though it amuses me that she has been pushing Cloud in various directions before in the story - but only when teamed up with Aeris. When Aeris died, did she lose the friend that gave her the confidence to push the boys around?
There's some other stuff, here - WEAPON. I'm of two minds about WEAPON. On the one hand, I like reinforcing the idea that the planet is not necessarily friendly to humans, and is even actively hostile. On the other hand, gundams are not the design choice I would have made.
I saw them as more of the Godzilla type monsters, which is somewhat fitting from the environmental message comparisons.
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I really need to pick up the pace today, I'm still not at the end of disc 1 yet.
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This is hard for me - the first time I played I thought for sure she knew, but now I'm sympathetic toward Tifa's comments that Aeris talked about the future more than anyone and didn't know she was going to die. I think maybe she knew the risks, but I think I'm Team Aeris-Wanted-To-Live. Of course, I sort of imagine that as she prayed for Holy, she was... "enlightened", if you will, and maybe past the point of caring. It's hard to say, though, I'd be interested in seeing what you have to say about this.
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When you revisit the city of the ancients later on they talk about how Holy works in all of these vague and uncertain terms... Aeris' prayer needs to reach the planet, Sephiroth is holding it back. It's a prayer, how could that possibly work? Her spirit energy, though, that's another story.
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For me, her comments in the game strongly suggest that she was planning on coming back. I think it's arguable whether or not she knew she was going to die as she was praying on the platform, but I don't think she felt she was going off to her death when she was talking to Cloud in the dream sequence. And let's not forget that it was set up in direct contrast to Cait Sith's death, where he sacrificed himself and then came back to life a hero. Aeris is just murdered, suddenly and brutally.
And the game never really supports the "Holy requires a sacrifice" fan theory that seems so popular. I mean, I know it's nice to think that her death wasn't in vain and that she knew she had to die to save the world blah blah blah, but I think that kind of thinking completely ignores the message the game is trying to present. Nomura and Kitase have always been pretty clear that her death wasn't meant to be a dramatic Hollywood affair where she sacrifices herself to save her loved ones.
"In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood." - Yoshinori Kitase
"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?" - Tetsuya Nomura
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It's a shame that they apparently forgot about this philosophy when they made Crisis Core. SIGH
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/sigh
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It still had the tragic elements of him dying right within sight of his destination, and it sort of added in a somewhat selfish aspect to his death that fit with the twisted notion of hero that the FF7 world has. Even when dying, he still thinks that being a hero is about fame, honour and power, and he is sort of trying to impose himself on Cloud there. It then takes Cloud to destroy the Shinra image, and show people what a real hero is.
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But I feel like Zack's death in FF7 was ultimately a much more powerful scene. He fights briefly and then gets shot down and dies. No dramatic speeches. No taking on the entire Shinra army. No meeting up with mentors or flying into the light. No weepy background music. No passing on his legacy. No goodbyes. The impact of the scene in the original game is built entirely around the brutality of sudden and merciless death. And it works.
Plus, I think CC takes the message and tone of the original game and completely ignores it. FF7 is about fighting to survive even when you're screwed up in the head. It's about actively improving the world around you.
When Zack dies in FF7 he doesn't say he's going to die so Cloud can live or any crap like that. He's fighting so they both can make it to Midgar, but he doesn't make it. CC is about sacrificing yourself for others, and giving up when you screw up. Because the only people in CC that DO ever screw up are the bad guys. It's a game about people who are passive targets of the action going on around them.
CC is a great game, but I have major issues with some of the philosophical choices they made. They really didn't keep things consistent.
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I pretty much agree with personasystem, and I think Zack's death in Crisis Core really illustrates the difference between Squaresoft's method of storytelling and how Square-Enix does it now, especially in their cutscenes.
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