I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post a personal feminist ethics question here or not, so if this is outside the bounds of this community I'll delete. So here goes
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I agree with that to a certain extent. Maybe my own experiences cloud my judgment here, but I tend to see all women as potential victims in this society. And I think it's important to listen to women themselves- whether it's women workers at wal-mart, immigrants, or strippers, whoever- in order to gauge their sense of the degree to which they are victims or potential victims. I talked to the dancers at the club not because I feel it's my job to protect or convert them or any of that bullshit. But because I figure they're probably a lot more informed about the industry, and certainly their own experience within the industry, than I am.
Given my own PERSONAL view that all women are potential victims (we do live in a society riddled with rape and violence against women, after all), I don't want to work in an industry that increases the likelihood of victimization. And I don't want to be someone who enables that victimization. That's all this is about. I'm leaning strongly toward working there because so far I've seen nothing about this particular strip club that makes it any worse than working for any other large corporation. However, I worry that money has made me only look for the positive and so I came here for a reality check.
oh jeez. all right, this explains everything. i would have crawled into a hole & died fifteen years ago if my worldview predicated that, as a woman, i am always a victim or potential victim & that my life must be dedicated to rooting out situations where my potential victimhood might reach critical mass. we're living life on opposite sides of the mirror here, hence a total breakdown of communications.
Maybe we are. Or maybe we just got to feminism from different places. I came to feminism as a child as a result of feeling very victimized, and feeling like there was no way to escape that victimization. But my approach has been that, through looking at and hopefully trying to change areas in which women are victimized, I can feel more empowered.
This is obviously the very individualistic, selfish side of my feminism. And of course there's more to it than that- recognizing the way my privilege hurts other women AND men and trying to root that out, using the privilege I do have (time, money, an extra room in my house, extra books, all of that kind of stuff) to help the people who don't have those privileges, etc.
I think I'm getting way off base here. But I just wanted to clear up that I don't see myself, or all women, as victims all the time. I see us as members of, and participants in, a society that victimizes women as a whole.
i would have crawled into a hole & died fifteen years ago if my worldview predicated that, as a woman, i am always a victim or potential victim & that my life must be dedicated to rooting out situations where my potential victimhood might reach critical mass.
I agree, that sounds like a horrible way to live. Why bother even leaving the house, horrible things ~might~ happen!
I dunno...it's called....ummm....living in reality? Horrible things might happen. Good thins might happen.
And I really don't understand why, in a feminist community, the idea that some women are scared, that some women live in fear, and that some women have had experiences that make that seem like a good idea, is such a shocking revelation so deserving of mockery.
But thinking of yourself as potential victim all your life and being hypervigilant constantly is not a happy way to live. I'm sure many people actually live in reality and don't feel like this.
I didn't claim that it's a happy way to live. The fact that it's not a happy way to live doesn't mean the fact that some women feel that way or partially feel that way is not relevant to feminism. Women, people of color, and an assortment of other groups do live under the threat of being victimized. And our culture uses the fear it instills in women as another way of victimizing them and preventing them from living their lives. So it's a little fucked up to laugh at someone when they voice feelings that (however bad or unhealthy, or a however much they are a product of a bad and unhealthy society) are issues that a lot of people deal with and a big part of the reason we need feminism.
And further, I did not say I think of myself constantly as a potential victim. The society in which I live gives me reasons to be afraid. If you don't feel the same way, fine. Whatever. But I think that in a society where a whole shit ton of women are raped, beaten, impoverished, and exploited, it's not unreasonable to feel beaten down by that on occasion. Part of the reason that I AM a feminist is that I do believe that's an unhappy way to live. I don't want myself or other people to have to live that way. But IMHO the way to change that is not to laugh at people who do feel that way, but work to change the societal problems that may cause them to feel that way.
Given my own PERSONAL view that all women are potential victims (we do live in a society riddled with rape and violence against women, after all), I don't want to work in an industry that increases the likelihood of victimization. And I don't want to be someone who enables that victimization. That's all this is about. I'm leaning strongly toward working there because so far I've seen nothing about this particular strip club that makes it any worse than working for any other large corporation. However, I worry that money has made me only look for the positive and so I came here for a reality check.
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This is obviously the very individualistic, selfish side of my feminism. And of course there's more to it than that- recognizing the way my privilege hurts other women AND men and trying to root that out, using the privilege I do have (time, money, an extra room in my house, extra books, all of that kind of stuff) to help the people who don't have those privileges, etc.
I think I'm getting way off base here. But I just wanted to clear up that I don't see myself, or all women, as victims all the time. I see us as members of, and participants in, a society that victimizes women as a whole.
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I agree, that sounds like a horrible way to live. Why bother even leaving the house, horrible things ~might~ happen!
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And I really don't understand why, in a feminist community, the idea that some women are scared, that some women live in fear, and that some women have had experiences that make that seem like a good idea, is such a shocking revelation so deserving of mockery.
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And further, I did not say I think of myself constantly as a potential victim. The society in which I live gives me reasons to be afraid. If you don't feel the same way, fine. Whatever. But I think that in a society where a whole shit ton of women are raped, beaten, impoverished, and exploited, it's not unreasonable to feel beaten down by that on occasion. Part of the reason that I AM a feminist is that I do believe that's an unhappy way to live. I don't want myself or other people to have to live that way. But IMHO the way to change that is not to laugh at people who do feel that way, but work to change the societal problems that may cause them to feel that way.
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