I would probably agree with that too, it's just that I haven't taken time to think that one through. It's different for children and adults, because of things like brain development and emotional maturity, which is why we have stricter laws in place to protect "children and vulnerable adults" from abuse (I'm required to call CPS or APS, for example, if one of my clients or students talks about a child or vulnerable adult being harmed, but not if I hear about domestic abuse involving adults, and even if I DID report it, APS can't do anything).
On the one hand, I want to say the difference is not quite as big as we make it, but on the other hand that seems it may disempower adult women. But anyway, I don't know if all of that is tangential but maybe. Do we treat child rape the same as rape of an adult woman? Why or why not? What are the different psychological effects (in general) and is it more difficult to emotionally heal from one or the other? I experienced sexual assault as a child but so far, not as an adult, so I can't answer this personally. I'm not aware of any studies that discuss it either.
I guess the bottom line is that with child rape I think unequivocally, no matter what, maximum possible sentence. With adult rape, part of me wants to say the same thing, and another part of me wants more information before I would form an opinion.
well by that logic you could say that saying that child rape is worse disempowers women, because little girls grow up to be adult women, after all.
i don't see what is so disempowering to recognize the legitimate and awful psychological damage being raped as an adult has. i can't work because of it. it doesn't disempower me to admit that and it wouldn't empower me to pretend it isn't true. it is what it is. admitting that being raped fucking sucks does not make women weak. i think that by saying that, it's like saying, 'oh, don't worry about it, she'll tough it out!' and men get to be punished less severely because women will 'get over it' eventually.
the first time i had intercourse was by being raped, and it was by the same man who was the only person i had done anything sexual with. some people think that's ~*totally worse*~ or whatever than being raped after you've lost your virginity and had good sexual experiences. first of all, i wouldn't be able to tell you either way, and second of all, i don't care. i don't think that how long someone is imprisoned for rape should depend on how upset it made you or how psychologically fucked you are or whatever. i don't care if being raped did not leave a single psychological mark on you. i'd want that person to go way for as long as they would for someone who developed DID as a result, or whatever.
well by that logic you could say that saying that child rape is worse disempowers women, because little girls grow up to be adult women, after all.
But I didn't say it was worse, I said that I think it's different, and I *need more information* before forming an opinion about a punishment that should be applied across the board for rape of adults. I have thought this through for rape of children but I don't believe it's the same for adults.
i don't see what is so disempowering to recognize the legitimate and awful psychological damage being raped as an adult has. i can't work because of it.
It's not, and I don't think I said that it was. I was talking about putting women into the same category as "children and vulnerable adults" when it comes to mandatory reporters and/or anyone reporting abuse to police/CPS/APS. I can't call up APS and tell them about the woman who I know whose husband is physically abusing her and have them do anything about it, and I'm torn as to whether that's a good thing or not. On one hand I wish people could DO something more when they know there's abuse going on. On the other hand, an adult woman *forced* out of an abusive relationship by APS would seem to only further disempower her. That's why I'm talking about the distinction made between adult women and "children and vulnerable adults" and exploring issues of disempowerment to women if there was no distinction made between them legally.
i don't think that how long someone is imprisoned for rape should depend on how upset it made you or how psychologically fucked you are or whatever.
That I agree with, on a case-by-case basis. That would be a ridiculous way to determine the sentence, and it also totally ignores the fact that a major reason for life in prison is to protect others, something I didn't mention previously. I know, for example, that studies show that the recidivism rate for child rapists is really huge, and that many believe it's something that simply cannot be "treated." For this reason alone life imprisonment seems not unreasonable. I'm not aware of similar studies for men who rape adult women, which, again, leads back to me just simply wanting more information before I would form an opinion about the punishment for rape of adults.
What my position basically boils down to is this:
1. rape of children is significantly different enough from rape of adults that we should not try to talk about them as if they're the same thing.
2. I feel I have enough information to say that child rapists should be put in prison for life on a first offense and I am simply witholding an opinion about adult rape because I don't think I have enough information. It may turn out that I end up thinking both warrant life in prison, but even then, I will not change my opinion about point 1. The same punishment still doesn't mean it's the same crime.
A five year old going to the zoo is different than a 25 year old going to the zoo.
A six year old getting the flu is different than a 36 year old getting the flu.
Differences in psychological development and emotional maturity between adults and children are a given--so why would it be difficult to imagine the value in talking about rape of each as being different? Or would you say that there should be no distinction between children and adults?
no, i just don't think there should be a legal distinction over whether you get a higher punishment for raping a child or a woman, especially since rape is already so heavily condoned in our society, it would be pretty cool to actually have men go to prison instead of getting parole after seven years.
if i could have prosecuted the man who raped me, i would want to see him go to prison for the rest of his life, and it makes me kind of mad that you would put a judgement on the fact that you and others who have been raped as children should get to see their rapists go to prison forever as opposed to adult rape victims. it's not about vengeance, it's about being constantly afraid that the same man is going to come back and fucking rape you, and as we should all know, restraining orders just don't work.
jesus christ, I don't know how much more clearly I can possibly spell out that I am not saying that child rape is worse or that it should have a worse punishment than adult rape. I'm saying that I DON'T KNOW. and I don't think I should be forced to have an opinion on this since what my opinion is doesn't even matter right now--I'm not voting on anything, I'm not writing anything that influences lawmakers or even human beings. I'm simply saying I DON'T KNOW. I don't think it's so very unreasonable for me to want some more INFORMATION before forming an opinion about something that I know little about.
I'm angry because all I'm trying to say is that child rape and adult rape ARE NOT THE SAME THING and that's getting twisted into me somehow saying "child rape is worse" and I AM NOT SAYING THAT.
well it's just that i can't see exactly what information is missing that you would need to make this opinion that wouldn't imply trying to figure out 'which is worse.'
I don't think in those terms, linearly, ranking things as if on a ladder. I don't put things in a neat row of "worse" and "better" or "higher" and "lower." That is very Greek, Western, masculine way of thinking. I simply don't think like that. My way of thinking is more feminine, eastern, circular. Two things being different doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other. How could we "rank" things like oranges and sunsets, or siblings and paper? These things have their own value and need not be compared to anything else. Me saying child rape is different from adult rape does not imply any kind of ranking, value judgment, or worse/better delineation.
I've provided plenty of examples of information I lack to make a decision about my opinion on the punishment for adult rape, and have no desire to get into it with you further. It's your choice now whether you accept that I simply approach this issue in a different way than you, or if you continue to try to frame my position based on how you structure your thinking. Either way, this conversation has become frustrating and, surprisingly, triggering, so I'm done.
I understand what you're saying--a child that is raped feels violated, but cannot accurately describe how and why they feel violated (the same is true of developmentally disabled adults), while an adult woman can.
On the one hand, I want to say the difference is not quite as big as we make it, but on the other hand that seems it may disempower adult women. But anyway, I don't know if all of that is tangential but maybe. Do we treat child rape the same as rape of an adult woman? Why or why not? What are the different psychological effects (in general) and is it more difficult to emotionally heal from one or the other? I experienced sexual assault as a child but so far, not as an adult, so I can't answer this personally. I'm not aware of any studies that discuss it either.
I guess the bottom line is that with child rape I think unequivocally, no matter what, maximum possible sentence. With adult rape, part of me wants to say the same thing, and another part of me wants more information before I would form an opinion.
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i don't see what is so disempowering to recognize the legitimate and awful psychological damage being raped as an adult has. i can't work because of it. it doesn't disempower me to admit that and it wouldn't empower me to pretend it isn't true. it is what it is. admitting that being raped fucking sucks does not make women weak. i think that by saying that, it's like saying, 'oh, don't worry about it, she'll tough it out!' and men get to be punished less severely because women will 'get over it' eventually.
the first time i had intercourse was by being raped, and it was by the same man who was the only person i had done anything sexual with. some people think that's ~*totally worse*~ or whatever than being raped after you've lost your virginity and had good sexual experiences. first of all, i wouldn't be able to tell you either way, and second of all, i don't care. i don't think that how long someone is imprisoned for rape should depend on how upset it made you or how psychologically fucked you are or whatever. i don't care if being raped did not leave a single psychological mark on you. i'd want that person to go way for as long as they would for someone who developed DID as a result, or whatever.
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But I didn't say it was worse, I said that I think it's different, and I *need more information* before forming an opinion about a punishment that should be applied across the board for rape of adults. I have thought this through for rape of children but I don't believe it's the same for adults.
i don't see what is so disempowering to recognize the legitimate and awful psychological damage being raped as an adult has. i can't work because of it.
It's not, and I don't think I said that it was. I was talking about putting women into the same category as "children and vulnerable adults" when it comes to mandatory reporters and/or anyone reporting abuse to police/CPS/APS. I can't call up APS and tell them about the woman who I know whose husband is physically abusing her and have them do anything about it, and I'm torn as to whether that's a good thing or not. On one hand I wish people could DO something more when they know there's abuse going on. On the other hand, an adult woman *forced* out of an abusive relationship by APS would seem to only further disempower her. That's why I'm talking about the distinction made between adult women and "children and vulnerable adults" and exploring issues of disempowerment to women if there was no distinction made between them legally.
i don't think that how long someone is imprisoned for rape should depend on how upset it made you or how psychologically fucked you are or whatever.
That I agree with, on a case-by-case basis. That would be a ridiculous way to determine the sentence, and it also totally ignores the fact that a major reason for life in prison is to protect others, something I didn't mention previously. I know, for example, that studies show that the recidivism rate for child rapists is really huge, and that many believe it's something that simply cannot be "treated." For this reason alone life imprisonment seems not unreasonable. I'm not aware of similar studies for men who rape adult women, which, again, leads back to me just simply wanting more information before I would form an opinion about the punishment for rape of adults.
What my position basically boils down to is this:
1. rape of children is significantly different enough from rape of adults that we should not try to talk about them as if they're the same thing.
2. I feel I have enough information to say that child rapists should be put in prison for life on a first offense and I am simply witholding an opinion about adult rape because I don't think I have enough information. It may turn out that I end up thinking both warrant life in prison, but even then, I will not change my opinion about point 1. The same punishment still doesn't mean it's the same crime.
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A five year old going to the zoo is different than a 25 year old going to the zoo.
A six year old getting the flu is different than a 36 year old getting the flu.
Differences in psychological development and emotional maturity between adults and children are a given--so why would it be difficult to imagine the value in talking about rape of each as being different? Or would you say that there should be no distinction between children and adults?
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if i could have prosecuted the man who raped me, i would want to see him go to prison for the rest of his life, and it makes me kind of mad that you would put a judgement on the fact that you and others who have been raped as children should get to see their rapists go to prison forever as opposed to adult rape victims. it's not about vengeance, it's about being constantly afraid that the same man is going to come back and fucking rape you, and as we should all know, restraining orders just don't work.
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I'm angry because all I'm trying to say is that child rape and adult rape ARE NOT THE SAME THING and that's getting twisted into me somehow saying "child rape is worse" and I AM NOT SAYING THAT.
Gah. I think I've said all I can say on this.
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I've provided plenty of examples of information I lack to make a decision about my opinion on the punishment for adult rape, and have no desire to get into it with you further. It's your choice now whether you accept that I simply approach this issue in a different way than you, or if you continue to try to frame my position based on how you structure your thinking. Either way, this conversation has become frustrating and, surprisingly, triggering, so I'm done.
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