Deities and paganism: an observation.
A common argument against God, usually used against any other deities as well, is the old saw of "either A. God is all-powerful and lets some people suffer because he's evil or malevolent. or B. God cares a great deal but is impotent. Either way, why worship Him?" Well, I realized today that my own faith has three alternative options to that A and B:
C. God or the gods (plural) is/are too busy keeping the multiverse working the way it should to bother with mortal affairs (if they even notice us), and/or has a mind that is far too complex for us mortals to comprehend. In this case, all platitudes about "God works in mysterious ways" are rendered meaningless, because how can such a platitude be anything else if God doesn't interfere with mortals for whatever reason? This is the all-powerful but aloof deity of deism, or in my case, the all-powerful but impossible-to-understand Kohraindehr, an impersonal deity either way. A deity that neither needs nor wants worship, and wouldn't care either way. Prayers to this deity go unheard or unnoticed, and never acted upon, because - again - impersonal deity.
D. The deities vary in power levels, mental complexity, personality, and degree to which they care about and/or interfere with mortals.
E. The deities have rules against too much interference with mortals. They can guide, teach, comfort, and even help boost the magick of mortals, but only so far.
See, that's the annoying thing about a lot of modern paganism and new agers: ancient pagans knew the world was a dangerous and sucky place. They prayed to deities that were more powerful than themselves, but NOT all-powerful. The deities were still people, and people are complex. There's a tendency in modern paganism to transplant from Abrahamic religions the same notions of omnipotent and omni-benevolent deities, and then to try to transplant science to some degree onto that. It just doesn't work that way! The world IS a big and scary place, full of terrifying shit, and to think that omnipotence and omni-benevolence go hand in hand is just absurd. Science and religion *can* work together, but only if the notion of an all-powerful personal deity are thrown out. Either a deity is all-powerful, or it's a personal deity; it can't be both at once.
In my case, C, D, and E are all true. There's Kohraindehr, impersonal deity of The All, a few other impersonal deities like Krainah (Time), and then there are personal deities. Personal deities vary in personality, and vary in how much they care about mortals, and in what ways. They also vary in what ways they are willing or able to help. They are people, writ large. Their minds are more complex than ours (at least in some cases, but maybe not in all cases), and they wield more power than we do, but they also have limitations of their own. And speaking from my own experience, sometimes the deities behave in ways that are peculiar. My own Goddess, Shao'Kehn, has a peculiar sense of humor. For years while I was first working with Her, She would answer my prayers in bizarre ways. I'd pray for a job, and end up getting a job processing frozen eggs or picking up garbage at a landfill. And there was always something else to learn from every experience, with Her. Working at Subway, I started hearing music in every sound around me. The landfill job got me out into the (relatively) fresh air and gave me exercise, and time to think. And one job that was always either panic-inducing levels of stress or ennui-inducing levels of tediousness gave me the most job security I've ever had, and gave me the biggest chance to prove myself worthy of responsibility. (The job at the casino's buffet, in Osceola.)
And then, Shao'Kehn stopped helping me out so much, to see how I would do flying on my own. I was doing pretty well, all things considered. But when I finally started to fall out of the sky, She was there to lift me up again. And even when I was flying solo, She was always there to offer comfort or advice when I asked for it. So I know how strange a relationship with a personal deity can be. I know from experience that it isn't always what you expect, or ask for, or want. Sometimes the answer to a prayer doesn't come because your deity wants you to figure this one out on your own. Sometimes the blessings come disguised as curses.
Also, Shao'Kehn has outright told me that there are both natural and artificial limits to the powers of personal deities. First of all, the degree to which they can interfere - and how they can interfere - are determined by the levels of magick in the world. Our modern world is VERY mundane, and often outright hostile to magick in any form. Which is ironic, because this mundanity is itself a kind of magick. But the ancient world was much more open to magick, hence the stories of magick and miracles from the olden days. Oh sure, it still wasn't the same as the wizards and warlocks fantasy novels would have you believe, since there was still mundanity even then, but there was still a lot more magick in the world back then than there is now.
Secondly, the deities have rules. Different worlds have different levels of magick, and also different rules for how much and in what ways deities can interfere in the mortal realm. In our world, currently, the prevailing rules - which I understand to be complex - make stopping suffering from wars, famines, and disease to be extremely difficult. There are many deities that desperately wish to help, but unless the world's magick levels go up significantly, the deities are limited in what they can do, by working with the tools they have. Their best tool at this point is getting through to people's minds, which is difficult because of the spread of monotheism, which is generally hostile to magick.
So I guess what I'm ultimately saying is, spiritual stuff is at least as complex as scientific stuff, but most people want to over-simplify things. I'm also saying that I wish more modern pagans would reject the Abrahamic notion of all-powerful personal deities. I've always had a problem with the whole "all gods are The God and all goddesses are The Goddess" thing. I know from personal experience that that is nonsense. The deities are individuals! You wouldn't call Thor during a healing ritual, would you? I hope not; healing is not Thor's area of expertise. Trust me, there are some deities you do NOT want to call for help with something that isn't their area of expertise, because you'll piss them off. And not all deities are nice people. Take some of the Russian pagan deities, for instance. The Russian pagans really did worship some pretty devil-like deities. For instance, invoking Dzarowit (Slavic god of war) would not make a good choice for a working to aid the cause of peace. And invoking Him in such a manner would end badly for you if you tried it.
Well, I think I've said all I need to for now.
This was cross-posted from http://fayanora.dreamwidth.org/1071470.html
You can comment either here or there.
C. God or the gods (plural) is/are too busy keeping the multiverse working the way it should to bother with mortal affairs (if they even notice us), and/or has a mind that is far too complex for us mortals to comprehend. In this case, all platitudes about "God works in mysterious ways" are rendered meaningless, because how can such a platitude be anything else if God doesn't interfere with mortals for whatever reason? This is the all-powerful but aloof deity of deism, or in my case, the all-powerful but impossible-to-understand Kohraindehr, an impersonal deity either way. A deity that neither needs nor wants worship, and wouldn't care either way. Prayers to this deity go unheard or unnoticed, and never acted upon, because - again - impersonal deity.
D. The deities vary in power levels, mental complexity, personality, and degree to which they care about and/or interfere with mortals.
E. The deities have rules against too much interference with mortals. They can guide, teach, comfort, and even help boost the magick of mortals, but only so far.
See, that's the annoying thing about a lot of modern paganism and new agers: ancient pagans knew the world was a dangerous and sucky place. They prayed to deities that were more powerful than themselves, but NOT all-powerful. The deities were still people, and people are complex. There's a tendency in modern paganism to transplant from Abrahamic religions the same notions of omnipotent and omni-benevolent deities, and then to try to transplant science to some degree onto that. It just doesn't work that way! The world IS a big and scary place, full of terrifying shit, and to think that omnipotence and omni-benevolence go hand in hand is just absurd. Science and religion *can* work together, but only if the notion of an all-powerful personal deity are thrown out. Either a deity is all-powerful, or it's a personal deity; it can't be both at once.
In my case, C, D, and E are all true. There's Kohraindehr, impersonal deity of The All, a few other impersonal deities like Krainah (Time), and then there are personal deities. Personal deities vary in personality, and vary in how much they care about mortals, and in what ways. They also vary in what ways they are willing or able to help. They are people, writ large. Their minds are more complex than ours (at least in some cases, but maybe not in all cases), and they wield more power than we do, but they also have limitations of their own. And speaking from my own experience, sometimes the deities behave in ways that are peculiar. My own Goddess, Shao'Kehn, has a peculiar sense of humor. For years while I was first working with Her, She would answer my prayers in bizarre ways. I'd pray for a job, and end up getting a job processing frozen eggs or picking up garbage at a landfill. And there was always something else to learn from every experience, with Her. Working at Subway, I started hearing music in every sound around me. The landfill job got me out into the (relatively) fresh air and gave me exercise, and time to think. And one job that was always either panic-inducing levels of stress or ennui-inducing levels of tediousness gave me the most job security I've ever had, and gave me the biggest chance to prove myself worthy of responsibility. (The job at the casino's buffet, in Osceola.)
And then, Shao'Kehn stopped helping me out so much, to see how I would do flying on my own. I was doing pretty well, all things considered. But when I finally started to fall out of the sky, She was there to lift me up again. And even when I was flying solo, She was always there to offer comfort or advice when I asked for it. So I know how strange a relationship with a personal deity can be. I know from experience that it isn't always what you expect, or ask for, or want. Sometimes the answer to a prayer doesn't come because your deity wants you to figure this one out on your own. Sometimes the blessings come disguised as curses.
Also, Shao'Kehn has outright told me that there are both natural and artificial limits to the powers of personal deities. First of all, the degree to which they can interfere - and how they can interfere - are determined by the levels of magick in the world. Our modern world is VERY mundane, and often outright hostile to magick in any form. Which is ironic, because this mundanity is itself a kind of magick. But the ancient world was much more open to magick, hence the stories of magick and miracles from the olden days. Oh sure, it still wasn't the same as the wizards and warlocks fantasy novels would have you believe, since there was still mundanity even then, but there was still a lot more magick in the world back then than there is now.
Secondly, the deities have rules. Different worlds have different levels of magick, and also different rules for how much and in what ways deities can interfere in the mortal realm. In our world, currently, the prevailing rules - which I understand to be complex - make stopping suffering from wars, famines, and disease to be extremely difficult. There are many deities that desperately wish to help, but unless the world's magick levels go up significantly, the deities are limited in what they can do, by working with the tools they have. Their best tool at this point is getting through to people's minds, which is difficult because of the spread of monotheism, which is generally hostile to magick.
So I guess what I'm ultimately saying is, spiritual stuff is at least as complex as scientific stuff, but most people want to over-simplify things. I'm also saying that I wish more modern pagans would reject the Abrahamic notion of all-powerful personal deities. I've always had a problem with the whole "all gods are The God and all goddesses are The Goddess" thing. I know from personal experience that that is nonsense. The deities are individuals! You wouldn't call Thor during a healing ritual, would you? I hope not; healing is not Thor's area of expertise. Trust me, there are some deities you do NOT want to call for help with something that isn't their area of expertise, because you'll piss them off. And not all deities are nice people. Take some of the Russian pagan deities, for instance. The Russian pagans really did worship some pretty devil-like deities. For instance, invoking Dzarowit (Slavic god of war) would not make a good choice for a working to aid the cause of peace. And invoking Him in such a manner would end badly for you if you tried it.
Well, I think I've said all I need to for now.
This was cross-posted from http://fayanora.dreamwidth.org/1071470.html
You can comment either here or there.