2) What is it EXACTLY that makes a Mary-Sue so detestible? Is it the a) Suethor, b) the writing/ story quality, or c) the concept/clishe of a Sue althogether that turns you off?
A mix of b) and c). Sues are usually (not always) the product of self-insert authorial fantasies, and thus tend to disregard most of the rules of good writing in favor of fleshing out the fantasy. Sues also tend to be, as Mary Poppins Queen of the Sues once said, "practically perfect in every way," and such characters are, for me, boring to read about. Sues make no mistakes, they can do everything, they're beautiful, they get whoever they're interested in - who would want to read about that? Oh, that's right: the author.
well, the author and other people who like writing/reading mary-sue fics, so they can insert themselves into the story. i've encountered people who've been flummoxed at the idea that we might find making the characters/people have relationships with one another rather than original characters appealing. YMMV i suppose?
well, the author and other people who like writing/reading mary-sue fics, so they can insert themselves into the story.
How does reading a Mary Sue fic allow you to insert yourself into the story? Is it because the Sue isn't an established character, and so even though she could technically represent the author, she could also be you too?
i suppose it works the same way that people imagine themselves as heroes in comic books or movies, something like that? i mean if no-one's reading these mary-sue fics i'd have to imagine people would stop posting them? but i'm on some fic-finding comms, and there are a lot of people asking for "some fic where [insert character here] meets [typical mary-sue OC here]". or maybe they just enjoy reading Mary-Sues?
2) For me, it's the quality of writing and sometimes the author's attitude. I actually really love a good Mary Sue story.
3) I think you list the different works on the works cited page, alphabetical by author and then title (Gaimon, American Gods; Gaimon, Sandman, or whatever). Within the text/footnote, you cite as (Gaimon, Title), I believe. I'm going by memory, though, so if anyone has an MLA handbook, that would definitely be more reliable.
2. IMO, unless it's a parody, the author is often writing a mary-sue unconsciously, and so warps the world in frankly boring ways to make it conform to their wish-verse world view. Generally this is at the expense of character development, interesting plot devices, or any kind of adherence to the logic of the world they're mary-sueing in.
2) Mary-Sues are a black hole of writing - they warp the world and the other characters so the fic is not about the original story, but about the Sue. What I've noticed is that it's the most irritating when it isn't labeled as such. If someone were to come right out and say, "This is a self-insert because I'd like to write a story about how I would exist in that world" then you know it's going to be narcissistic and non-compliant with canon, so your expectations don't get smashed.
It's interesting; I've noticed that a great deal of fanfic drama could be avoided if the author accurately labeled their work so people who wanted to read it could find it and people who didn't like that type could avoid it. So it ends up being less about the writing, but how it is identified.
(and sorry, didn't mean to bash all SI fic, just the ones where it's all about the SI of an idealized version - see below comment. :) )
I don't think a self insert necessarily has to be narcissistic and non-compliant with canon. I have certainly written one story in which the OFC was a self insert - and she was (simply by virtue of being like me) overweight, geeky, middle aged and unimportant. She didn't get the guy (in fact she was horribly intimidated by the guy and wouldn't have dared to think of him like that), and the whole point of the story was to explore the canon from a slightly different perspective. (It was also a modern day woman in Middle-earth fic.)
So I think that the whole black-hole effect is what defines a Sue, because if Sues were *really* self insert characters, complete with real life hangups and inabilities, they could actually be quite interesting.
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A mix of b) and c). Sues are usually (not always) the product of self-insert authorial fantasies, and thus tend to disregard most of the rules of good writing in favor of fleshing out the fantasy. Sues also tend to be, as Mary Poppins Queen of the Sues once said, "practically perfect in every way," and such characters are, for me, boring to read about. Sues make no mistakes, they can do everything, they're beautiful, they get whoever they're interested in - who would want to read about that? Oh, that's right: the author.
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How does reading a Mary Sue fic allow you to insert yourself into the story? Is it because the Sue isn't an established character, and so even though she could technically represent the author, she could also be you too?
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3) I think you list the different works on the works cited page, alphabetical by author and then title (Gaimon, American Gods; Gaimon, Sandman, or whatever). Within the text/footnote, you cite as (Gaimon, Title), I believe. I'm going by memory, though, so if anyone has an MLA handbook, that would definitely be more reliable.
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(and sorry, didn't mean to bash all SI fic, just the ones where it's all about the SI of an idealized version - see below comment. :) )
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So I think that the whole black-hole effect is what defines a Sue, because if Sues were *really* self insert characters, complete with real life hangups and inabilities, they could actually be quite interesting.
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