Balthazar does seem like a heavily Noir figure, or neo-Noir .... the faded Knight, addicted to and weakened by pleasure...
Castiel's idealism is beautiful -- but doomed? Even if he wins, his hands are covered in blood.
I agree with you that the Wall itself is the most Noir aspect we've seen so far. The way it divides self from self from self in Sam's mind is just boggling. I love that idea that whatever secret lies behind it might hold important answers -- though poor Samgirls if he has to throw himself into Mount Doom yet again!!
Yeah, as a Sam girl and also a fan of film noir who's kind of reveling in this direction the show is taking, I'm very conflicted about where this could go! LOL. But I think it's possible we've been mislead in some way about what exactly it would mean for the wall to break. (Who knows, maybe Death is the surpise big baddie here and he's actually trying to cover something up and his intentions in employing Sam and Dean as his P.I. team are not as agreeable as they'd hope.) I'm sure even if Sam survives it the consequences will really not be pretty, but the idea that Ignorance Is Bliss would be a bit anti-climactic and unsatisfying for a way to end that particular plot thread.
the issues of Noir -- poisoned identity, horrible truths, duplicity and betrayal
The question I've had ever since they started bandying that word, Noir, as a season influence, is: how do you take Horror and make it Noir?
Because, this show already has a genre, and in case no one noticed (but of course we all did) those themes listed above had been present throughout the entire series, since the beginning.
Sam is not who Jess thinks. Dean cons people on every hunt, in every town. John makes Dean promise to kill Sam if he can't save him, and swears him to secrecy. Mary Winchester was not the sweet innocent girl John believed, but a hunter, daughter of a hunting clan, who made a deal with a demon. Angels were never who we presumed they'd be. Ruby was playing Sam. Sam hid his addiction to demon blood. The boys hadn't known that Bobby killed his own wife. Or that he was considered the town drunk and crackpot
( ... )
If you don't mind continuing this a little bit further...
I like your questions, and my attempt to answer is this -- in Horror, we presume innocence, while in Noir, we presume guilt.
I think that's too broad a statement, because horror itself has gone through phases. Classic horror might presume the victims innocence but modern and cinema horror often play everything on the victims' guilt. The most obvious example is the Saw series but there are lots of others. There may be one or two innocents but most of the victims are awful people the audience doesn't mind seeing off, it's what lets the audience cheer for the monster.
I agree complete that RoboSam was a clean slate. Not an improvement on our tarnished but heroic Sam, but not evil. And I had the increasing sense that he was learning. The action of having Sam's soul returned from the cage by Death was so sudden, abrupt and violent it left me gasping with shock rather than cheering.
I still don't know how we got from zero information about the cage to knowing everything that goes
( ... )
I know abs. nothing about Saw... in fact I tend to avoid horror films in general. The last thing I saw was Jensen's My Bloody Valentine, and the issue of his guilt or innocence is key to the film... so you may have a point there. There's also vendetta horror, right? where the villain presumes guilt and picks people off? but there's still a sense of self-preservation on behalf of the heroes?
I used to read a lot of Vertigo comix... things like Hellblazer. Constantine is def. not innocent... but that's what make him such a Noir figure, in his trench and all.
My basic problem in understanding Noir is the shifting sense of identity. I go in with a suspension of disbelief as to the identity of characters, and then Noir upends that, leaving me confused and disconcerted. I guess I'm not post-modern enough (or too much!)
I tend to agree with you about the way Noir has been used so far... but in most seasons, things have gotten way darker from the halfway point to the end -- and this season has ALREADY been so dark
( ... )
I'm mainly familiar with noir through Raymond Chandler novels and his own writing on the hardboiled detective genre. Coming from there, I'd add another item to your list, though I'm not sure if it's a quality of most other types of noir
( ... )
I think the special appeal of the Show is that there are two Heroes who are very different yet brothers -- bound to each other on a souldeep level. If Dean is a Knight, it doesn't necessarily mean that Sam isn't -- just that at this time, it's Dean's quest that drives the story, whereas in the past it's been Sam's quest, either to revenge Jess or to save Dean -- or in s5 to put Lucifer back in the bottle. With Sam desouled, he still seems to have agency -- but he's not a Knight, because he owes no allegiance. Desouled Sam is first and foremost concerned with what's best for himself. Dean otoh has historically felt most comfortable when pledged to the service of a greater cause (and John, a specific feudal Lord if you will). Right now, he's been cut loose -- a kind of Ronin -- and he finds himself delivering packages for the wrong people
( ... )
Comments 19
"Bobby's my uncle -- my father -- my uncle AND my father!!!"LMAO, I was way too amused by that ( ... )
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Castiel's idealism is beautiful -- but doomed? Even if he wins, his hands are covered in blood.
I agree with you that the Wall itself is the most Noir aspect we've seen so far. The way it divides self from self from self in Sam's mind is just boggling. I love that idea that whatever secret lies behind it might hold important answers -- though poor Samgirls if he has to throw himself into Mount Doom yet again!!
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The question I've had ever since they started bandying that word, Noir, as a season influence, is: how do you take Horror and make it Noir?
Because, this show already has a genre, and in case no one noticed (but of course we all did) those themes listed above had been present throughout the entire series, since the beginning.
Sam is not who Jess thinks. Dean cons people on every hunt, in every town. John makes Dean promise to kill Sam if he can't save him, and swears him to secrecy. Mary Winchester was not the sweet innocent girl John believed, but a hunter, daughter of a hunting clan, who made a deal with a demon. Angels were never who we presumed they'd be. Ruby was playing Sam. Sam hid his addiction to demon blood. The boys hadn't known that Bobby killed his own wife. Or that he was considered the town drunk and crackpot ( ... )
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I like your questions, and my attempt to answer is this -- in Horror, we presume innocence, while in Noir, we presume guilt.
I think that's too broad a statement, because horror itself has gone through phases. Classic horror might presume the victims innocence but modern and cinema horror often play everything on the victims' guilt. The most obvious example is the Saw series but there are lots of others. There may be one or two innocents but most of the victims are awful people the audience doesn't mind seeing off, it's what lets the audience cheer for the monster.
I agree complete that RoboSam was a clean slate. Not an improvement on our tarnished but heroic Sam, but not evil. And I had the increasing sense that he was learning. The action of having Sam's soul returned from the cage by Death was so sudden, abrupt and violent it left me gasping with shock rather than cheering.
I still don't know how we got from zero information about the cage to knowing everything that goes ( ... )
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I know abs. nothing about Saw... in fact I tend to avoid horror films in general. The last thing I saw was Jensen's My Bloody Valentine, and the issue of his guilt or innocence is key to the film... so you may have a point there. There's also vendetta horror, right? where the villain presumes guilt and picks people off? but there's still a sense of self-preservation on behalf of the heroes?
I used to read a lot of Vertigo comix... things like Hellblazer. Constantine is def. not innocent... but that's what make him such a Noir figure, in his trench and all.
My basic problem in understanding Noir is the shifting sense of identity. I go in with a suspension of disbelief as to the identity of characters, and then Noir upends that, leaving me confused and disconcerted. I guess I'm not post-modern enough (or too much!)
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I totally agree with this. There's quite a few elements of noir in season 4, especially in Castiel's storyline.
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