I like this quote...

[fallenrose]

"I don't understand why asking people to eat a well-balanced vegetarian diet is considered drastic, while it is medically conservative to cut people open and put them on cholesterol lowering drugs for the rest of their lives." - Dean Ornish, MD

Comments

[finding_helena]

It's easier to go in for a procedure, recover afterwards, and then take a pill every day. It's harder to change your diet drastically, especially if you really enjoy meat.

Of course I favor lifestyle changes over medical interventions. And lifestyle changes are the first recommendation for patients who come in with ... well, lots of different problems. But some people are loath to change their lifestyle that much. Don't forget, the vegetarian diet requires learning new recipes, realigning the way you shop, and cutting out foods you enjoy. Not everybody is going to want to do that... and I think it should be their choice, much as I prefer a natural approach personally.

Or to paraphrase Dilbert, why would I do something that makes me miserable so that I could live longer and therefore have more time to spend being miserable?

Me, I would probably be a vegetarian before I'd take a pill. I hate taking pills. But my sun doesn't rise and set on whether I get meat. I asked this question to my meat-loving husband and he said he'd rather take a pill than be vegetarian.

[fallenrose]

*sigh* I'm sorry to say, but I hate when people are that close-minded. People assume that being vegetarian sucks and that it means sacrifices and eating bland boring shit. EATING VEGETARIAN ISN'T MISERABLE. In fact, eating healthier and therefore feeling healthier means LIFE IS MORE ENJOYABLE. Becoming vegetarian was one of the best things that ever happened to me for expanding my horizons and helping me to find new and delicious food. I have found so much more to enjoy in life by giving up meat. I'd rather be healthy through diet and exercise than take some pill to address some symptom, then have to take another pill for the side effects of the first pill, and so forth, and STILL be a tired, weak, walking heart-attack-waiting-to-happen.

[tleventer]

"I'd rather be healthy through diet and exercise than take some pill to address some symptom, then have to take another pill for the side effects of the first pill, and so forth, and STILL be a tired, weak, walking heart-attack-waiting-to-happen."

I have to argue with your statement only because I know plenty of people (family being some of them) that have changed their diets to include healthy whole foods INCLUDING meats that are nowhere near the "tired, weak, walking heart-attach-waiting-to-happen" that you describe. Thinking that all meat eaters are of that ilk ... isn't that as bad and as closed-minded as folks thinking vegetarian = bland?

[fallenrose]

T,
I did not say (and have never) said that applies to all meat eaters. That is nowhere in my entry or comments, nor in any past statements I have made. It does apply to some meat eaters AND to some vegetarians and vegans; it all depends on many factors including the balance and health of the diet, exercise, environmental factors, genetics, etc. Hell, I'm a case in point - I'm tired and achey a lot, but I think that has more to do with not getting enough exercise and eating unhealthy foods (in with the healthy ones) than with not eating meat - which I think a lot of omnivores, sadly, defensibly jump to. I feel saying "Well you don't feel good so you should stop being vegetarian" is the same as saying "All health problems are caused by meat and meat eaters are cruel and evil." Which I do not have never have said. If a person has health problems, they should always observe their diet to see if they are getting proper nutrition and avoiding things that make them sick. Now, -excessive- consumption of meat, red meat in particular, has been shown over and over again to be unhealthy. That doesn't mean eating any meat at all is going to kill you.
Anyway, my point was actually that pills and surgery generally affect the symptoms, not the causes, and I would prefer to tackle the causes (diet imbalances, insufficient exercise, and environmental factors) than treat the symptoms and have the causes still causing trouble. For people suffering from obesity, high cholesterol, diabetes, aetherosclorosis, etc., a well-balanced vegetarian diet may be just what the doctor ordered - literally. And I personally don't really understand choosing expensive surgery and several daily medications (also expensive, usually) over eating a vegetarian diet, which could have many benefits for a person in that position.
Please do not lump me in with the holier-than-thou omnivores-are-the-devil steretype. I can and will express my opinions on my livejournal, but I won't lecture you or anyone else and I believe that everyone makes their own decisions. Mine is to be vegetarian, and I think that is a healthy way to live. I believe everyone should take care of their health, whatever that entails (some people live healthy on pork rinds and cheetos... I want those genes!!). Like I said, I just don't get choosing surgery & pills, stop-gap measures at best, over more natural remedies that would get at the root cause... which is also not to say that pills don't help people - I am grateful for my thyroid meds - but I prefer a natural approach that gets at the root cause rather than something to treat symptoms.

[finding_helena]

Hey, like I said, I have no problem with you doing that. I think it's better that way, and you are totally right about the cascading medications... in a lot of cases it's best not to get started (although part of that problem, too, is due to poor medication management and can often be alleviated except in extreme cases like cancer). But you'll never persuade some people to give up their cheeseburgers. And I think those people still deserve medical care that meets them where they are, even if where they are isn't where some people would like them to be.

As for eating vegetarian not being miserable... I've been vegetarian and I was okay with it, but there's no way some people will get on board. I'm pretty sure my husband would be miserable if we were to force him to be a vegetarian. Cutting down on meat and/or eating it prepared in a more healthy fashion also helps... it's not all or nothing.

[fallenrose]

Oh agreed. I think he'd be especially miserable being forced. I completely agree that it should be a choice. Now, when it's a choice between bypass surgery, several medications, and the possibility of further "complications"... well, it's still a choice. But being an omnivore can certainly be done in a healthy way (just as I always say that being vegetarian can be done in an unhealthy way).

[peaceofpie]

I don't actively believe in pushing this position anymore because it isn't worth pissing people off over...but, it does seem ethically imbalanced to me to say that telling someone not to eat meat is unacceptable and anyone who does this must be stopped...but eating meat from factory farms is A-OK.

[fallenrose]

As far as proselytizing goes, I actually draw a line between meat and other animal products from factory farms versus those from animals raised ethically and in an environmentally responsible way. While still honoring that each person's choice is their own, I try to encourage those friends of mine that have the option to buy a greater proportion or solely ethically raised animal products... not everyone can because they are almost inevitable more expensive. Of course, I also think that if you are too poor to afford ethically raised animal products, maybe you should rearrange your priorities (eating less but better meat, for example). It all comes back to choice, and I try to encourage my friends to make the choices that meet with their ethical standards with integrity.

[peaceofpie]

Yeah. I generally agree with your line, though I assume most people would rather not eat meat than spend extra money on it (which is actually probably a bad assumption; it just happens to be true for me) and that personally I still find the idea of raising an animal just to kill it and eat to to be kinda morally gross especially when there are other options available, but that's kinda fuzzy for me, I guess, because I know I personally would have an easier time eating something made with, say, chicken broth that came from factory farmed chickens than I would killing and eating a chicken that I knew personally. I mean, really the main reason I'm a vegan is because I have this gut reaction of OH MY GOD DON'T DO THAT when I think about animals having to suffer so I can eat food, just like the reaction I have when I see someone hit their kid or mock a disabled person. All the other reasons are important, but that's what makes me stay vegan; that's why I'm still vegan after over six years.

[peaceofpie]

As someone who's still recovering from major surgery that was arguably far less invasive than open heart surgery, a year after the fact, and who has also been vegan for 6+ years...going vegan was way easier. And way less expensive.

Major surgery also requires lifestyle changes, both pre-op and post-op. God knows I learned that the hard way.

Also, unlike many other dietary lifestyle changes, vegetarianism is not typically done just for health reasons; it involves a shift in one's ethical paradigm as well. It's not just "giving up food"; it's choosing foods that weren't tortured in factory farms. I think most people don't want to think about that every time they sit down to eat. For me, if it's not on my plate, I don't have to think about it. For someone who's used to eating meat, sitting down in front of a plate of unfamiliar food is what makes them think about it, and it takes a while for the shift to happen before one gets used to vegetarian meals.

I get that it seems like the Dilbert thing, though, and I wonder what needs to happen to give people hope that vegetarianism is not miserable...but I guess for me it ultimately comes down to the ethical issue, not the health issue, and I'm just not happier enough eating meat to justify supporting factory farming. Even if I really really really liked eating meat...and, in all honesty, I really really really liked eating meat!...I can't do it, I don't feel like a good person if I do, and that makes me way more miserable than tofu.

[finding_helena]

See, I don't disagree with you. But I know there are people who would, and I'm not sure they'd find your arguments convincing. I'm really playing devil's advocate here. My main point is--some people would rather go the medical intervention route than the diet change route, despite having all the best help in the world available with those things. And we may perceive it to be a bad idea, and objectively speaking it may be a bad idea. But that doesn't mean we can just dismiss the concerns of that segment of the population.

I'd also like to note that there is a class issue in play here. Somebody who's on Medicaid is going to have a hard time seeing a dietitian if Medicaid doesn't cover it; they may have grown up eating only processed foods and don't know how to cook more healthily, and that isn't something you can just learn in a snap. I see a LOT of Medicaid patients who can get all the medications they want but who are going to have a really hard time getting a doctor to spend 10 minutes with them, let alone getting any other non-drug therapy.

[fallenrose]

*sigh* Which is just one more truly $&%&ed up thing with our health system and health culture (or rather, culture of sickness). To me, a sensible society would promote preventative medicine rather than systemically making it harder. Gah.

[peaceofpie]

Personally, I'd love to see a massive demedicalization of health care. There are so many things that people think only doctors can do that actually people can do just fine without a medical degree. I'm not saying anyone should just start doing open-heart surgery without some advanced training, but regular people can certainly learn to do things like blood tests and Pap smears without having to pay someone a zillion million dollars for the privilege. Sure, doctors won't make as much money that way...or, maybe they will, because they'll be able to see more patients who really need an actual doctor!

[finding_helena]

I've heard that HMOs are starting to lean this way because they've realized preventative medicine saves money over the long run. It sounds like a good idea on the whole but I'm going to reserve judgment on this because a HMO's idea of preventative medicine may not be something I actually agree with.

$&%& is indeed the word for it.

[peaceofpie]

I disagree about it being a class issue...the only class issue I see is the assumption that someone would need to see a dietitian to eat healthfully! ;-)

There are plenty of great resources for someone to use to learn vegetarian or vegan cooking. Unlike medical interventions, you don't need a degree to access the resources one needs to help someone eat better. Someone who wanted to learn vegetarian cooking could go on the internet, go to the library, ask a friend, find a local vegetarian support group...heck, there are grocery stores like Whole Foods all over the place which offer free classes and have knowledgable people working there who can tell you how to cook all kinds of things. I've certainly never seen a dietitian and I don't know any other vegans who have either. Even if someone has a special health condition, a little Google search can give them plenty of great recipes.

Personally, I'm happy to support anyone who wants to learn vegan cooking. I've coached people into veganism before and I don't charge a cent. That's what I do instead of trying to talk people into veganism. I've realized it doesn't work to do that. Instead, I proselytize with my delicious cooking. (And then I let Kasi take over when baking's involved, 'cuz I can't bake my way out of a paper bag unless she's supervising. XD)

[finding_helena]

I am not implying that someone of a poorer class automatically "needs" to see a dietitian to eat healthily, and I don't appreciate your implication that I'm saying that. My point here was that changing one's diet is not so easy, and is especially not easy among people who are strapped for cash, time, and resources.

See here... it is not on precisely this topic but they do discuss the issue of class privilege in diet in a way that's more coherent than I'm capable of at this time of night.