I also wanted to like him because he was Jack's love interest and he was a "cute office boy"
He had so much potential! But I kept changing my mind about what his role was. Was he a cunning grifter, playing Jack the way Jack used to play other people? Was he Alfred to Jack's Batman? Was he Jack submissive, adoring companion, or was he his own man, answering to no one? Even at his death, I wasn't sure who or what the real Ianto was, or how much he actually loved Jack. And that isn't a character; that's a chameleon.
It made him great for fanfic because he could be whatever a fan wanted to make of him. At first I looked to fanfic to explain and translate Ianto to me, but that didn't work - I just got even more confused. Everywhere I looked, I saw a different Ianto.
It bothered me that there was more feeling, more passion, and more intensity between Jack and Captain Harkness in "Captain Jack Harkness" in a few minutes of screen time, than there was between Jack and Ianto in three seasons. I felt I'd been left out of the real story there, whatever it was.
I still feel I don't really know Ianto's story. I assume he started out trying to seduce and trick Jack so he could use Torchwood to save Lisa, but that turned very bad, and he consequently fell in love with Jack for real, but was still skittishly uneasy about having a gay relationship, and remained mostly closeted. That's the closest I can come to making sense of it for my own satisfaction.
I think that is why some people liked Ianto - he was a mystery, a chameleon - but there wasn't enough there for me to like. Even their on-screen relationship held that same quality. While I don't mind playing in the sandbox, I like having some parameters that everyone can at least see, if not agree on. It really is too bad. I'd had such hope for their relationship.
I think that is why some people liked Ianto - he was a mystery, a chameleon -
I don't think they generally thought that consciously. I think many fans were able to find in Ianto what they wanted to find in Ianto, because what they saw on screen was open to so many interpretations; so the relationship fit many tastes, often conflicting tastes. I heard many fans say they thought other fans misinterpreted the character - but as far as I could see, just about any interpretation fits what we got on screen, because it was so inchoate. And the interpretation that doesn't fit at all, to my eyes, is deep romantic love - because it didn't show up onscreen, especially in the scenes where they were alone together and still, a good part of the time, treated each other the way one would treat any co-worker.
While I don't mind playing in the sandbox, I like having some parameters that everyone can at least see, if not agree on.
I want characters to be well-defined and vivid. Characters who are templates can't be three-dimensional; I find them unconvincing and bland.
I'd had such hope for their relationship.
Me too. I'm not sorry it was there. I just wish we'd been shown the substance of both the character and their feelings, instead of a series of unrealized hints.
I also want and like well-defined characters. Even when Jack was written out-of-character he was at least recognizable. I never knew who Ianto was and that bothered me. I couldn't accept the Ianto that I found in fanfiction either for that very same reason.
Romantic love between Jack and Ianto in fanfic didn't work for me either. They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were. They did treat each other as coworkers most of the time. Did they love each other, maybe, but the relationship itself hadn't gone to that level, at least not that I could see.
That bothered me, too. And even now... when we will presumably get no more information about him... I find myself wondering about his nature and his motivations, and wondering what the 'real' inner Ianto was like. When did he come to love Jack, and why? Why did he side with Owen against Jack in 'End of Days'? Why did he lie about his family to Jack and the Torchwood crew, and why did he lie to his family about Jack?
As for the fanfic, I simply accepted that I'd be reading about a different Ianto in every story I read, and just to accept it as such. The result was a less-than-usual interest in reading a lot of Jack/Ianto slash, though there were many stories I liked on their own merits. (Mostly ones that touched on my own preferences, regardless of canon.)
They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were.
At some points, it seems to have been love, though that begs the issue of what kind of love it was. At other times it was anger and resentment, as we see in 'Cyberwoman'. Presumably his relationship with Jack helped pull Ianto out of his depression, but we're given no hints about their private life together. They went out together to a restaurant once - only once? We know Ianto loved movies, but there's no hint he and Jack went to movies or watched movies together, and I always thought it was strange that in 'From Out of the Rain', Ianto didn't invite Jack to the cinema with them, or even tell him where they were going.
In contrast, I had no doubts about Jack's feelings for the Doctor, or the other Captain Jack, or even Gwen.
It seems that if Jack and Ianto truly loved each other, then never said so till the very last opportunity - and that's just weird, because Jack was never slow or reluctant to show his feelings for other people.
Exactly. The not knowing was a big reason why I couldn't get into their relationship. I didn't know the progression of it beyond the inconsistencies they showed us, and I couldn't understand their motivations for getting together in the first place beyond the physical.
Presumably his relationship with Jack helped pull Ianto out of his depression, but we're given no hints about their private life together. They went out together to a restaurant once - only once? We know Ianto loved movies, but there's no hint he and Jack went to movies or watched movies together, and I always thought it was strange that in 'From Out of the Rain', Ianto didn't invite Jack to the cinema with them, or even tell him where they were going.
This whole thing, yes. It went simply beyond inconsistencies in writing. It's been mentioned that some idea for a relationship between the two had been planned from the start, but I don't see how if I didn't even notice it was there in series one. And in series two, I still couldn't see them spending time together outside of work. That they would even go to a fancy French restaurant pre-COE didn't fit with how I interpreted what we'd been shown, unless they were there for a mission, which would make a great deal more sense than a date.
Jack was never slow or reluctant to show his feelings for other people.
Again, that was where I had problems. That wasn't the Jack I knew. And as you said, we had no doubt of his feelings for others, even the Doctor whom we never saw in Torchwood itself.
The only rationale I could even come up with was that it was something about Ianto that made him reluctant, or something about his role as a leader of the organization that changed him. Why else would we see absolutely no evidence of him with anyone else when he's supposed to be a lothario? And why would he close himself off so much from Ianto?
I wonder if Ianto's closeted nature set up the boundaries for the relationship early on so that even in private there were walls up. I can't see Jack not being affectionate and open unless that person he was with expressed that he put a lid on it.
The result was a less-than-usual interest in reading a lot of Jack/Ianto slash, though there were many stories I liked on their own merits.
That's true for me as well. I don't read very much in the fandom, and the fics I do like, I like because of something about them (their writing, characterization) rather than anything to do with the relationship.
Even with the fact that I just couldn't buy into the Jack/Ianto relationship at all, I could probably discuss it endlessly because there are so many angles to examine that I keep hoping eventually I'll come upon something that actually makes sense to explain it.
The not knowing was a big reason why I couldn't get into their relationship.
That was a lot of it. The big problem for me was that, to my eyes, they never acted like lovers. Not that there's any particular way that lovers should act, but - they never looked at each other for no reason in public, never stared into each other's eyes a few seconds longer than necessary, never smiled at each other as if there was a private joke. They never stood close together when there was a group of people. They even seemed to talk to each other in private in exactly the same tone as in public - and the kiss in "To the Last Man" just emphasized that. It didn't seem warm, or close, or personal to me. When Jack was with the other Jack, I could tell they could barely keep their hands off each other, even in totally impossible circumstances. Same with Gwen and Owen when they had their hot little fling. But Jack and Ianto? Tepid at best.
We see three sexual incidents between them, if I'm counting right.
The first is in "They Keep Killing Suzie", where Jack doesn't even realize what Ianto is talking about at first when he suggests sex. And this is Jack, king of the innuendo squad.
The second is when Gwen surprises them in the greenhouse in "Adrift" - we don't see what preceded that, and they're certainly both very sexually aware at that moment, but the bit we see has their attention much more directed towards Gwen than each other, despite what they've just been doing together.
The third is in COE when Ianto suggests sex, Jack says it isn't a very appropriate time, Ianto urges him to it, and Rhys doesn't leave, so nothing happens. Seems to me Jack is not particularly interested - and if he was, they would have found a way.
So we're told and even shown that they're having sex, but but I see no spark. Even in the kiss in "End of Days", Ianto seems very stiff to me. Add to that that he doesn't want anyone to know about his affair with Jack - and when he discusses it, it's obliquely, except with Martha... It just seems to me disappointingly unromantic, with very little visible sexual tension. And Jack can be utterly sexy talking to complete strangers. We've seen it.
Moreover, when Jack is in love he has a certain joy and energy to him that I don't see at all when he's with Ianto. He reacted more strongly and personally to Martha than to Ianto.
That they would even go to a fancy French restaurant pre-COE didn't fit with how I interpreted what we'd been shown, unless they were there for a mission, which would make a great deal more sense than a date.
Good point. I guessed that the restaurant dinner was the 'date' they talked about in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang", but there's no real indication - except that Ianto tried to pretend that it didn't mean anything.
I wonder if Ianto's closeted nature set up the boundaries for the relationship early on so that even in private there were walls up.
That was one of my suppositions, since I couldn't think of much else that made sense. I had thought (before the relationship was confirmed by the story) that Jack had made himself a rule not to sleep with employees. Turns out I was wrong there.
The more I look at it, the more it seems to me that Ianto was totally messed up emotionally, and projecting his problems onto Jack. Which makes me simply think that Jack deserved better! He's maturally a warm and demonstrative man.
I could probably discuss it endlessly because there are so many angles to examine that I keep hoping eventually I'll come upon something that actually makes sense to explain it.
Me too! Obviously it made sense to other people, so I want to see something that adds up, and keep poking at it. So far, every angle I think of has holes - either it doesn't match the canon as shown, or it doesn't make sense psychologically.
I think we are supposed to believe that in series 2 Jack and Ianto were living (together) in the Hub. But I know of absolutely nothing that confirms that.
I can recall Jack holding hands (for various reasons) with Gwen, Tosh, and John Ellis, but not with Ianto.
He had so much potential! But I kept changing my mind about what his role was. Was he a cunning grifter, playing Jack the way Jack used to play other people? Was he Alfred to Jack's Batman? Was he Jack submissive, adoring companion, or was he his own man, answering to no one? Even at his death, I wasn't sure who or what the real Ianto was, or how much he actually loved Jack. And that isn't a character; that's a chameleon.
It made him great for fanfic because he could be whatever a fan wanted to make of him. At first I looked to fanfic to explain and translate Ianto to me, but that didn't work - I just got even more confused. Everywhere I looked, I saw a different Ianto.
It bothered me that there was more feeling, more passion, and more intensity between Jack and Captain Harkness in "Captain Jack Harkness" in a few minutes of screen time, than there was between Jack and Ianto in three seasons. I felt I'd been left out of the real story there, whatever it was.
I still feel I don't really know Ianto's story. I assume he started out trying to seduce and trick Jack so he could use Torchwood to save Lisa, but that turned very bad, and he consequently fell in love with Jack for real, but was still skittishly uneasy about having a gay relationship, and remained mostly closeted. That's the closest I can come to making sense of it for my own satisfaction.
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I don't think they generally thought that consciously. I think many fans were able to find in Ianto what they wanted to find in Ianto, because what they saw on screen was open to so many interpretations; so the relationship fit many tastes, often conflicting tastes. I heard many fans say they thought other fans misinterpreted the character - but as far as I could see, just about any interpretation fits what we got on screen, because it was so inchoate. And the interpretation that doesn't fit at all, to my eyes, is deep romantic love - because it didn't show up onscreen, especially in the scenes where they were alone together and still, a good part of the time, treated each other the way one would treat any co-worker.
While I don't mind playing in the sandbox, I like having some parameters that everyone can at least see, if not agree on.
I want characters to be well-defined and vivid. Characters who are templates can't be three-dimensional; I find them unconvincing and bland.
I'd had such hope for their relationship.
Me too. I'm not sorry it was there. I just wish we'd been shown the substance of both the character and their feelings, instead of a series of unrealized hints.
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Romantic love between Jack and Ianto in fanfic didn't work for me either. They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were. They did treat each other as coworkers most of the time. Did they love each other, maybe, but the relationship itself hadn't gone to that level, at least not that I could see.
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That bothered me, too. And even now... when we will presumably get no more information about him... I find myself wondering about his nature and his motivations, and wondering what the 'real' inner Ianto was like. When did he come to love Jack, and why? Why did he side with Owen against Jack in 'End of Days'? Why did he lie about his family to Jack and the Torchwood crew, and why did he lie to his family about Jack?
As for the fanfic, I simply accepted that I'd be reading about a different Ianto in every story I read, and just to accept it as such. The result was a less-than-usual interest in reading a lot of Jack/Ianto slash, though there were many stories I liked on their own merits. (Mostly ones that touched on my own preferences, regardless of canon.)
They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were.
At some points, it seems to have been love, though that begs the issue of what kind of love it was. At other times it was anger and resentment, as we see in 'Cyberwoman'. Presumably his relationship with Jack helped pull Ianto out of his depression, but we're given no hints about their private life together. They went out together to a restaurant once - only once? We know Ianto loved movies, but there's no hint he and Jack went to movies or watched movies together, and I always thought it was strange that in 'From Out of the Rain', Ianto didn't invite Jack to the cinema with them, or even tell him where they were going.
In contrast, I had no doubts about Jack's feelings for the Doctor, or the other Captain Jack, or even Gwen.
It seems that if Jack and Ianto truly loved each other, then never said so till the very last opportunity - and that's just weird, because Jack was never slow or reluctant to show his feelings for other people.
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Exactly. The not knowing was a big reason why I couldn't get into their relationship. I didn't know the progression of it beyond the inconsistencies they showed us, and I couldn't understand their motivations for getting together in the first place beyond the physical.
Presumably his relationship with Jack helped pull Ianto out of his depression, but we're given no hints about their private life together. They went out together to a restaurant once - only once? We know Ianto loved movies, but there's no hint he and Jack went to movies or watched movies together, and I always thought it was strange that in 'From Out of the Rain', Ianto didn't invite Jack to the cinema with them, or even tell him where they were going.
This whole thing, yes. It went simply beyond inconsistencies in writing. It's been mentioned that some idea for a relationship between the two had been planned from the start, but I don't see how if I didn't even notice it was there in series one. And in series two, I still couldn't see them spending time together outside of work. That they would even go to a fancy French restaurant pre-COE didn't fit with how I interpreted what we'd been shown, unless they were there for a mission, which would make a great deal more sense than a date.
Jack was never slow or reluctant to show his feelings for other people.
Again, that was where I had problems. That wasn't the Jack I knew. And as you said, we had no doubt of his feelings for others, even the Doctor whom we never saw in Torchwood itself.
The only rationale I could even come up with was that it was something about Ianto that made him reluctant, or something about his role as a leader of the organization that changed him. Why else would we see absolutely no evidence of him with anyone else when he's supposed to be a lothario? And why would he close himself off so much from Ianto?
I wonder if Ianto's closeted nature set up the boundaries for the relationship early on so that even in private there were walls up. I can't see Jack not being affectionate and open unless that person he was with expressed that he put a lid on it.
The result was a less-than-usual interest in reading a lot of Jack/Ianto slash, though there were many stories I liked on their own merits.
That's true for me as well. I don't read very much in the fandom, and the fics I do like, I like because of something about them (their writing, characterization) rather than anything to do with the relationship.
Even with the fact that I just couldn't buy into the Jack/Ianto relationship at all, I could probably discuss it endlessly because there are so many angles to examine that I keep hoping eventually I'll come upon something that actually makes sense to explain it.
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That was a lot of it. The big problem for me was that, to my eyes, they never acted like lovers. Not that there's any particular way that lovers should act, but - they never looked at each other for no reason in public, never stared into each other's eyes a few seconds longer than necessary, never smiled at each other as if there was a private joke. They never stood close together when there was a group of people. They even seemed to talk to each other in private in exactly the same tone as in public - and the kiss in "To the Last Man" just emphasized that. It didn't seem warm, or close, or personal to me. When Jack was with the other Jack, I could tell they could barely keep their hands off each other, even in totally impossible circumstances. Same with Gwen and Owen when they had their hot little fling. But Jack and Ianto? Tepid at best.
We see three sexual incidents between them, if I'm counting right.
The first is in "They Keep Killing Suzie", where Jack doesn't even realize what Ianto is talking about at first when he suggests sex. And this is Jack, king of the innuendo squad.
The second is when Gwen surprises them in the greenhouse in "Adrift" - we don't see what preceded that, and they're certainly both very sexually aware at that moment, but the bit we see has their attention much more directed towards Gwen than each other, despite what they've just been doing together.
The third is in COE when Ianto suggests sex, Jack says it isn't a very appropriate time, Ianto urges him to it, and Rhys doesn't leave, so nothing happens. Seems to me Jack is not particularly interested - and if he was, they would have found a way.
So we're told and even shown that they're having sex, but but I see no spark. Even in the kiss in "End of Days", Ianto seems very stiff to me. Add to that that he doesn't want anyone to know about his affair with Jack - and when he discusses it, it's obliquely, except with Martha... It just seems to me disappointingly unromantic, with very little visible sexual tension. And Jack can be utterly sexy talking to complete strangers. We've seen it.
Moreover, when Jack is in love he has a certain joy and energy to him that I don't see at all when he's with Ianto. He reacted more strongly and personally to Martha than to Ianto.
That they would even go to a fancy French restaurant pre-COE didn't fit with how I interpreted what we'd been shown, unless they were there for a mission, which would make a great deal more sense than a date.
Good point. I guessed that the restaurant dinner was the 'date' they talked about in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang", but there's no real indication - except that Ianto tried to pretend that it didn't mean anything.
I wonder if Ianto's closeted nature set up the boundaries for the relationship early on so that even in private there were walls up.
That was one of my suppositions, since I couldn't think of much else that made sense. I had thought (before the relationship was confirmed by the story) that Jack had made himself a rule not to sleep with employees. Turns out I was wrong there.
The more I look at it, the more it seems to me that Ianto was totally messed up emotionally, and projecting his problems onto Jack. Which makes me simply think that Jack deserved better! He's maturally a warm and demonstrative man.
I could probably discuss it endlessly because there are so many angles to examine that I keep hoping eventually I'll come upon something that actually makes sense to explain it.
Me too! Obviously it made sense to other people, so I want to see something that adds up, and keep poking at it. So far, every angle I think of has holes - either it doesn't match the canon as shown, or it doesn't make sense psychologically.
I think we are supposed to believe that in series 2 Jack and Ianto were living (together) in the Hub. But I know of absolutely nothing that confirms that.
I can recall Jack holding hands (for various reasons) with Gwen, Tosh, and John Ellis, but not with Ianto.
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