I agree with you entirely on Ianto being my least favorite character. I also wanted to like him because he was Jack's love interest and he was a "cute office boy", but I just couldn't get into the character. I barely noticed him in series one at all, truth be told. While his lack of characterization, or perhaps open characterization, was the reason why some liked him the most, it made it difficult for me to grasp anything to like at all. And I'll be the first to admit that him becoming the fandom favorite turned me off even more.
You hit on another point about the Jack/Ianto relationship as well, which I additionally had a hard time with in understanding why the fandom liked it so much. I didn't even catch that there was anything going on with Jack until the kiss in End of Days, which was therefore a bit of a shock. Unfortunately he just wasn't the equal that I would've wanted for Jack. I've gained a little more appreciation for it since outside of the fandom, but it never ended up being what I hoped it might become anyway.
I also wanted to like him because he was Jack's love interest and he was a "cute office boy"He had so much potential! But I kept changing my mind about what his role was. Was he a cunning grifter, playing Jack the way Jack used to play other people? Was he Alfred to Jack's Batman? Was he Jack submissive, adoring companion, or was he his own man, answering to no one? Even at his death, I wasn't sure who or what the real Ianto was, or how much he actually loved Jack. And that isn't a character; that's a chameleon
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I think that is why some people liked Ianto - he was a mystery, a chameleon - but there wasn't enough there for me to like. Even their on-screen relationship held that same quality. While I don't mind playing in the sandbox, I like having some parameters that everyone can at least see, if not agree on. It really is too bad. I'd had such hope for their relationship.
I think that is why some people liked Ianto - he was a mystery, a chameleon -
I don't think they generally thought that consciously. I think many fans were able to find in Ianto what they wanted to find in Ianto, because what they saw on screen was open to so many interpretations; so the relationship fit many tastes, often conflicting tastes. I heard many fans say they thought other fans misinterpreted the character - but as far as I could see, just about any interpretation fits what we got on screen, because it was so inchoate. And the interpretation that doesn't fit at all, to my eyes, is deep romantic love - because it didn't show up onscreen, especially in the scenes where they were alone together and still, a good part of the time, treated each other the way one would treat any co-worker.
While I don't mind playing in the sandbox, I like having some parameters that everyone can at least see, if not agree on.I want characters to be well-defined and vivid. Characters who are templates can't be three-dimensional; I find them
( ... )
I also want and like well-defined characters. Even when Jack was written out-of-character he was at least recognizable. I never knew who Ianto was and that bothered me. I couldn't accept the Ianto that I found in fanfiction either for that very same reason.
Romantic love between Jack and Ianto in fanfic didn't work for me either. They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were. They did treat each other as coworkers most of the time. Did they love each other, maybe, but the relationship itself hadn't gone to that level, at least not that I could see.
That bothered me, too. And even now... when we will presumably get no more information about him... I find myself wondering about his nature and his motivations, and wondering what the 'real' inner Ianto was like. When did he come to love Jack, and why? Why did he side with Owen against Jack in 'End of Days'? Why did he lie about his family to Jack and the Torchwood crew, and why did he lie to his family about Jack?
As for the fanfic, I simply accepted that I'd be reading about a different Ianto in every story I read, and just to accept it as such. The result was a less-than-usual interest in reading a lot of Jack/Ianto slash, though there were many stories I liked on their own merits. (Mostly ones that touched on my own preferences, regardless of canon.)
They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were. At some points, it seems to have been love, though that begs the issue of what kind of love it was. At other times it was
( ... )
Exactly. The not knowing was a big reason why I couldn't get into their relationship. I didn't know the progression of it beyond the inconsistencies they showed us, and I couldn't understand their motivations for getting together in the first place beyond the physical.
Presumably his relationship with Jack helped pull Ianto out of his depression, but we're given no hints about their private life together. They went out together to a restaurant once - only once? We know Ianto loved movies, but there's no hint he and Jack went to movies or watched movies together, and I always thought it was strange that in 'From Out of the Rain', Ianto didn't invite Jack to the cinema with them, or even tell him where they were going.This whole thing, yes. It went simply beyond inconsistencies in writing. It's been mentioned that some idea for a relationship between the two had been planned from the start, but I don't see how if I didn't even notice it was there in series one. And in series two, I still couldn
( ... )
The not knowing was a big reason why I couldn't get into their relationship.That was a lot of it. The big problem for me was that, to my eyes, they never acted like lovers. Not that there's any particular way that lovers should act, but - they never looked at each other for no reason in public, never stared into each other's eyes a few seconds longer than necessary, never smiled at each other as if there was a private joke. They never stood close together when there was a group of people. They even seemed to talk to each other in private in exactly the same tone as in public - and the kiss in "To the Last Man" just emphasized that. It didn't seem warm, or close, or personal to me. When Jack was with the other Jack, I could tell they could barely keep their hands off each other, even in totally impossible circumstances. Same with Gwen and Owen when they had their hot little fling. But Jack and Ianto? Tepid at best
( ... )
You hit on another point about the Jack/Ianto relationship as well, which I additionally had a hard time with in understanding why the fandom liked it so much. I didn't even catch that there was anything going on with Jack until the kiss in End of Days, which was therefore a bit of a shock. Unfortunately he just wasn't the equal that I would've wanted for Jack. I've gained a little more appreciation for it since outside of the fandom, but it never ended up being what I hoped it might become anyway.
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I don't think they generally thought that consciously. I think many fans were able to find in Ianto what they wanted to find in Ianto, because what they saw on screen was open to so many interpretations; so the relationship fit many tastes, often conflicting tastes. I heard many fans say they thought other fans misinterpreted the character - but as far as I could see, just about any interpretation fits what we got on screen, because it was so inchoate. And the interpretation that doesn't fit at all, to my eyes, is deep romantic love - because it didn't show up onscreen, especially in the scenes where they were alone together and still, a good part of the time, treated each other the way one would treat any co-worker.
While I don't mind playing in the sandbox, I like having some parameters that everyone can at least see, if not agree on.I want characters to be well-defined and vivid. Characters who are templates can't be three-dimensional; I find them ( ... )
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Romantic love between Jack and Ianto in fanfic didn't work for me either. They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were. They did treat each other as coworkers most of the time. Did they love each other, maybe, but the relationship itself hadn't gone to that level, at least not that I could see.
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That bothered me, too. And even now... when we will presumably get no more information about him... I find myself wondering about his nature and his motivations, and wondering what the 'real' inner Ianto was like. When did he come to love Jack, and why? Why did he side with Owen against Jack in 'End of Days'? Why did he lie about his family to Jack and the Torchwood crew, and why did he lie to his family about Jack?
As for the fanfic, I simply accepted that I'd be reading about a different Ianto in every story I read, and just to accept it as such. The result was a less-than-usual interest in reading a lot of Jack/Ianto slash, though there were many stories I liked on their own merits. (Mostly ones that touched on my own preferences, regardless of canon.)
They had feelings, obviously, but we don't know the depth of those feelings or what they even were. At some points, it seems to have been love, though that begs the issue of what kind of love it was. At other times it was ( ... )
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Exactly. The not knowing was a big reason why I couldn't get into their relationship. I didn't know the progression of it beyond the inconsistencies they showed us, and I couldn't understand their motivations for getting together in the first place beyond the physical.
Presumably his relationship with Jack helped pull Ianto out of his depression, but we're given no hints about their private life together. They went out together to a restaurant once - only once? We know Ianto loved movies, but there's no hint he and Jack went to movies or watched movies together, and I always thought it was strange that in 'From Out of the Rain', Ianto didn't invite Jack to the cinema with them, or even tell him where they were going.This whole thing, yes. It went simply beyond inconsistencies in writing. It's been mentioned that some idea for a relationship between the two had been planned from the start, but I don't see how if I didn't even notice it was there in series one. And in series two, I still couldn ( ... )
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