Wow, this got WAY too long...... U___U*
OK, I guess this post's a long time coming..... 9_9
But where do I even start?
I want to basically talk about the current atmosphere of our fandom that I feel might be a bit stifling to some of us in terms of critiquing GACKT or anything related to GACKT. I feel like there's a trend in the fandom where people can't criticize anything he says or does ( Read more... )
But where do I even start?
I want to basically talk about the current atmosphere of our fandom that I feel might be a bit stifling to some of us in terms of critiquing GACKT or anything related to GACKT. I feel like there's a trend in the fandom where people can't criticize anything he says or does ( Read more... )
If I, as a woman, feel uncomfortable with some of the rubbish he's said over the years because it's blatant sexism, why question that feeling?
People who don't see anything wrong with what he says seem very naive to me. Mostly because they don't seem to consider the lingering effects of what G says, and how different that is from anything wé could say. We are just commoners with little to no effect on the world around us, but he is entirely different. I think there'll be a point where he'll have half a million followers on Twitter, and all of those people see what he says and all of them process it differently.
I personally rarely engage in pervy talk about G because that's simply not an area that interests me, but there's a vast majority out there that does "objectify" him with these talks. In a way less harmful way with only a few people listening, if I may say so. There is no hypocrisy, there is no double standard, there is no reverse-sexism. He is a person with influence, his words have a certain "weight": the rules are different for him. He knows this, because he uses this in good ways as well (another graduation ceremony and SYH being recent cases), but I wonder if he has any idea of the impact his words have when he talks about women and relationships.
I wish he handled it as an adult and showed awareness of all that. Sexism (toward both sexes) is an evil that still has a long way to go before it dissapears from the world, if it ever will. The least he could do is stop slowing that down. And yes, that's what I feel he does.
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Yes. That's exactly it, actually.
Why question anybody's feeling? It's like you saying "I don't like this taste" and someone goes "Are you sure? But that's what it's supposed to taste like, and a lot of people like it. I like it a lot, so why don't you?" and then eventually, "Well, it's just a fruit. Don't make such a big deal out of it, you don't have to eat it anyway."
I know I'm a big exaggerating here, BUT. ^^;;
"People who don't see anything wrong with what he says seem very naive to me."
I do, too. Those really were seriously offensive things he said. If any 'commoner' said the same things loudly in the middle of a train station, he COULD be arrested for causing public disturbance or possibly even 'lewd behavior'. ^^;;
"all of those people see what he says and all of them process it differently"
Exactly. Older and/or mature girls/women would most likely find it quite offensive, while a lot of impressionable junior high and high school girls who just blindly worship him may think that's the proper way to 'receive' male affection. GAH...
"I personally rarely engage in pervy talk about G because that's simply not an area that interests me"
Me, neither. X'D
There was one point when I heavily participated in it, but it wasn't so much because I thought it was fun, it was more because ppl kept teasing me about my 'magnum' dreams, and I don't like ignoring ppl. XD But eventually I quit. :P
"There is no hypocrisy, there is no double standard, there is no reverse-sexism."
I don't really know the thing that happened that you're referring to here, so it's hard for me to respond, but if there is a hypocrisy, it would be something like a fan finding the tweets disgusting when she's always saying that men must always have their you-know-what clean and ready to please their women anytime the women want them (sorry for the imagery... X'D). Girls having pervy talk or writing smut about G are indeed objectifying him, but they're not telling him or the men of the world to actually behave that way, are they? I don't find sexism in that.
"I wonder if he has any idea of the impact his words have when he talks about women and relationships"
I have no idea. 9__9;;
I feel like Japan is still way behind in terms of women's rights and feminist movements. I mean, if an American celeb male said the same things on Twitter, THE WORLD will be criticizing him in minutes and he WILL suffer tangible and harsh consequences. :/
I mean, G would never come on NHK and say stuff like that, would he? Why then does he feel so free to say what he wants on Twitter when he knows 40,000 ppl follow him already? *sigh*
I actually personally believe that some of the differences between men and women should be celebrated, so I can agree with his viewpoints to SOME extent, but anyone telling others what to do and what not to do solely based on genders is not celebrating the differences, it's taking away individual freedom and rights as well as rejecting diversity.
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Just wanted to point out that you leave out those who are mature/old enough and DON'T blindly worship him, understanding that what he said was definitely not good, BUT react to the things in a different way (or show they reaction in a different way).
Yes, I'm talking about myself here. I was also.. disturbed by those comments and I definitely can see it can affect some impressionable part of his fanbase. BUT I don't see how shouting out my negativity towards this can help _him_ understand he's wrong and realize he should filter his words. If I wanted to prove him he was wrong, I'd rather write to him directly.
Can this make people think over about what he said and change their opinions? Maybe. But I highly doubt so. Those who thought it was "just a bad joke" but he went too far this time, will still think so. Those who thought he was right, it's OK to think that way for any man or for him cause he's great, will still think so.
Seriously, influenceable people will still believe him more than you, no matter how good you will be at convincing. And it's exactly the same as if they try to convince you he's perfect and can't be wrong. Useless.
Then why to bother? To draw more attention to the problem? For me it looks like feeding a troll - and it provoques the same amount of flame and enraged discussions.
Or it's just to show that you're not agree with him on this point?
I don't say you can't express your opinion (of course you can), but, please, if you want it to be respected, then respect other ones - without judging and labelling. If some subjects are too touchy for people to bring them in public - it doesn't mean they haven't any opinion and gladly accept whatever is thrown to them by the star.
Sorry if it sounded harsh, but I thought this thread lacks of opposite POV. And you wanted diversity of opinions, so... here it is. Some of it.
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"Just wanted to point out that you leave out those who are mature/old enough and DON'T blindly worship him, understanding that what he said was definitely not good, BUT react to the things in a different way (or show they reaction in a different way)."
Not exactly in that way, no. But if you mean 'offensive' by 'definitely not good', then I did include them in my first category. It doesn't have to be "being personally offended", you know? If you do realize that it was 'offensive to some people in general', then I included them in the first category (I did say "quite offensive", but I also said "most likely" X'3).
"BUT I don't see how shouting out my negativity towards this can help _him_ understand he's wrong and realize he should filter his words. If I wanted to prove him he was wrong, I'd rather write to him directly."
In my case, it was because I wasn't trying to change his mind or challenge him. I was just stating my honest feelings about the matter. I think our government sucks, but I don't tweet that to every single congressman every time I think that. X'3
And that's what you do on Twitter. It's really not a place of discussion. The platform is not designed for that. Because we're a large fandom and we use it for chatting a lot, we sometimes feel like it's a place for discussion, but originally, it's really not meant for discussion, but to say whatever you feel like at the moment.
And the thing is, G does the same thing all the time. He hates women who smoke heavily, so he tweeted it. Did that improve anything? Don't you think it actually had more negative impact than positive, the way he said them? And he has a huge megaphone, I might add. Doesn't he have more responsibility for his words than any of us fans since he has a huge audience and he calls himself the leader?
And I do know that there were quite a few people (Japanese people) who were offended by the tweets and said that directly to him that day. Did he respond to any of them, explain more what he meant in a mature, non-insulting manner? Was he ready to explain his tweet further? No. In fact, he abruptly and quite rudely said "Don't make me say anymore than this" after he clearly suggested "what women should be holding in their mouths aren't cigarettes but ****". Do you really think that was a mature and respectful way to handle it?
If his attitudes were like that, isn't it natural for people to express discomfort?
I think you're probably expecting too much from others, dear. By implication, you're saying that you want people to never say anything negative about...anything unless it does some good. But unfortunately, that will never happen, and you know it. I think that really would be wonderful, honestly. But in reality, people will complain if they want to (and so does G, all the time), and it is their right to do so. I do understand that you don't like it. But again, if you keep refusing to accept things you have no control over, you will feel stressed. =/
See, to me, the world is all about balance. There can be no positives without negatives. No good without evil. No happiness without sadness. And you can't have just one, you have to accept both and everything in-between, because that's the reality.
I hope I'm making myself clear... <^^;, but this is how I really feel about everything in life.
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Now that sounds good xD But it didn't last time when I read your original comment >< Maybe I really didn't get nuances of what you said, so it was just a misunderstanding.
Btw, that's exactly what I mean when I say people have to be ready to explain their POV a bit further if they want to be sure others understood them right ^^
In my case, it was because I wasn't trying to change his mind or challenge him. I was just stating my honest feelings about the matter.
Actually, I didn't see your original statement, I was "late to the party" back then. But I believe yours one was thoughtful, calm and all that, so it's not about you xD
I think you're probably expecting too much from others, dear. By implication, you're saying that you want people to never say anything negative about...anything unless it does some good.
Did I ever say that? *re-reads her comments* No way. What I say is I'd love people to express their critisizm in a proper way or doing it more.. privately if they want to shout out their rage. Like writing a post in their blog, placing it under a cut and putting warning about it being extremely offensive/rude and full of rage.
If someone swears and shouts on the street, even random people passing by will feel uncomfortable, right? That's why it's even illegal in many countries. I believe web is pretty much like that, especially in Twitter. Sure, you can do anything you want, but then don't be surprised when people will say nasty things in return.
Besides, I don't think it's a cool idea to react to offensive statements made by G insulting him. Doesn't it make people sound exacly like he did? I think it's much more classy to state your disagreement/disgust/whatever calmly and politely, showing you're a really mature person (unlike him in this case xD).
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Then, why do you never complain about the troll himself in the first place instead of people who may or may not be feeding the troll? Isn't that a bit unfair? =/
Whenever you think he said something you don't like or find offensive, why don't you say "Oh, he's complaining again? Why would he say that when it won't do any good, when it won't change anything?" instead of criticizing the people who voice their disagreements with him?
Do you see my point?
How come he can keep saying whatever he wants, offensive or not, and you can tolerate it so well, but when his fans criticize him, you are really bothered by them? Is that fair?
I'm not trying to make you feel bad (never!), I just want you to think about it.
"I don't say you can't express your opinion (of course you can), but, please, if you want it to be respected, then respect other ones - without judging and labelling. If some subjects are too touchy for people to bring them in public - it doesn't mean they haven't any opinion and gladly accept whatever is thrown to them by the star."
But I do. =|
There were some people who actually did explain their opinions on his tweets to me (instead of sounding dismissive of my feelings), and they didn't agree with me. They really thought it was nothing but an unfunny joke he made. And I didn't understand how they could see it that way, but I did respect their opinions as they were. Do I think they might be sexually immature/insecure or possibly even blind followers if they saw 'absolutely' nothing wrong with what he said? Yes, I think they might be. BUT I still respect their opinions, and I don't look down on them. How can I? I've been there, too, myself at some points in my life, and their feelings aren't 'wrong'. It's just how they feel, so how can I not respect them?
Or did you feel like I wasn't respecting yours, perhaps? =/
The thing is, the tweets came to 'me', I didn't tweet anybody myself. So, I naturally figured everybody wanted me to explain why 'I' felt the way I did. It's not that I wasn't respecting others' views at all, I was simply replying to 'questions' posed against me, to explain my views since it was 'requested'. When some said "I see nothing wrong with them", I probably said "OK". I didn't try to convince others they were wrong. You see, I really was simply and honestly answering questions, not dismissing anybody else's views. :/
So...., I don't really understand why you're telling me to respect other POVs, when I always do. Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I don't respect them, and I never try to convince others they're 'wrong' about their 'feelings', Mariya (unless it's really a simple misunderstanding, like mistranslation). =/
OK, that's REALLY it for me tonight!! X'D
Mariya, the only thing I ask of you is not to take anything I said to you tonight as attack or criticism. If you do, that'd really break my heart because, then, I'd wish I never spent 4 hours just writing to you (just you! X'D) when I have a lot of other comments and emails I should've responded first. LOL
I just felt like you wanted to get a lot of thoughts out and purge them, and I want you to feel safe in doing so in my journal.
All I want is for you to feel more joy in the fandom, because I certainly do. X'3
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How come he can keep saying whatever he wants, offensive or not, and you can tolerate it so well, but when his fans criticize him, you are really bothered by them? Is that fair?
Well, to say it short - because I love and respect him... more than majority of fans in the fandom (meaning I love him more than I love them xD). I spent quite a lot of time on trying to understand him, creating an image of him as close to reality as possible. And before judging I give him "a second chance". It's not easy to deserve this "second chance" from me actually, it's smth only close friends and people I cherish get.
Cause I'll have to deal with him (them) in the future. So anyway I'll have to accept this part of him - or stop being his fan. Simple as that.
As for other fans... unless they're my close friends, I don't feel like I need to accept everything they throw to me (or in the atmosphere), especially if they're extremely rude.
Then - who said I never complain? I do, a lot sometimes. Just not on public. And it's not that I'm afraid of blacklash or smth - if I state my opinion, I'm always ready to prove it. And I'd explain it myself anyway.
Just whenever I say smth bad about him or his words, later I regret it a lot. Cause I find something in his interviews etc that proves me I misunderstood him somehow.
So when he does or says smth, I prefer thinking it over alone or with my close friends before making an opinion and stating it publicly.
And usually... well, the problem is solved on this stade and I don't feel I need to say it out loud anymore. That's it.
I know others' process things differently and actually I rarely comment on people being in rage with G or smth (it's their deal). But I honestly don't understand this and think they'd better think a little bit more before spilling out all that.
As for critisizm about his new songs/projects/whatever, people are also very fast in saying what they're unhappy about. It always puzzles me. Unless I really don't like the song and can't say anything good about it, I'd rather think about what I like in it first and say that. Then - about negative points, maybe.
But nope, more and more people with each release feel a need to say smth negative about it - and that's all. Like if there are no any good points in it at all.
Doesn't it sound strange, in the fandom which is supposed to love G? Not unconditionally, but still - love.
I don't mind negativity and diversity of opinions as it is. I also think it's more interesting like that. Just proportions of that negativity in our fandom seem kinda wrong to me right now. Looks like people are concentrating on negative points, searching for them on purpose, scrutinizing his every word in order to find smth suspicious - and make a quarrel out of it, no matter if it's really serious or not.
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