I mean "formative" in the sense that the Buffyverse was my first fandom and I'd never before seen such incorrect shipping in my life.
LMAO. Bless.
I do think the show(s) had a tendency to romanticize the story (... a lot), but in some ways I also think that was a somewhat necessary part of the story -- it's the epitome of that heady, destructive (understatement) first love, the kind you feel like you "can't breathe" without, the kind that scars you for life.True. And I think BtVS walks a fine line between romanticizing the story while also problematizing it? Most shows tend to tip too far one way or the other - romanticizing gross relationships is easy to find, but I also notice dysfunctional ships that are SO dysfunctional that we as viewers can't understand what the one character possibly sees in the other. (I feel this way a lot with S/E. Like, emotionally, I could not wrap my head around it when Elena kept fighting for Stefan in S3, even though I intellectually get why she was so determined to make it work.) But with Buffy and
( ... )
Agreed about BtVS walking that fine line. I have such nostalgia for the disaster. ^^)
but I also notice dysfunctional ships that are SO dysfunctional that we as viewers can't understand what the one character possibly sees in the other. (I feel this way a lot with S/E. Like, emotionally, I could not wrap my head around it when Elena kept fighting for Stefan in S3, even though I intellectually get why she was so determined to make it work.) Haha, this would be more true for me with S4 S/E, I think? S3 S/E made me furious because it all but completely erased Elena's voice by way of glossing over her trauma in favor of the romantic ~reunion. But S4 S/E is so blatantly emotionally abusive in a totally un-romanticised way that I can't see how even the staunchest apologists could see anything remotely romantic there.
Right, but that's the point - S4 S/E isn't trying to be romantic. It's blatantly dysfunctional and abusive, full stop, whereas S3 tries to walk that line between romantic and problematic.
When BtVS walks that line, I feel conflicted - I want Buffy to be happy and it breaks my heart when Angel(us) treats her so cruelly, while at the same time I also love how deliciously subversive it is. But S3 S/E tips so far into abusive that I lost that sense of inner conflict? It's just as dysfunctional as B/A, but lacks that edge of heartbreaking romanticism, even though the show clearly wants me to have romantic feels. Instead, I'm just all "GTFO Stefan."
And maybe the erasing of Elena's voice is part of that? Buffy's trauma is always on full display (even if she often blames herself for it). Elena either doesn't know or doesn't care that she's a victim of abuse, and so I feel RELIEVED whenever Elena acknowledges her trauma, not heartbroken, because it means she's finally showing some self-awareness and emotional self-preservation.
Ah, see, for me weirdly I can actually see the appeal of S3 S/E all the way through? Partly because I actually did ship it right up to and including the Wickery Bridge business. And as many issues as I have with the total lack of fallout from that, I still had enough lingering feelings to understand the draw throughout the rest of the season, even though I personally couldn't and wouldn't ship it anymore.
Instead, I'm just all "GTFO Stefan." Also extremely valid.
And maybe the erasing of Elena's voice is part of that? Buffy's trauma is always on full display (even if she often blames herself for it).That is a very good point. The thing about Buffy/Angel on BtVS is that Buffy was always a more fleshed out character than Angel (who was mostly just a symbol), so his man pain never took away from her story. Not so with Stefan/Elena. Though I think Elena is and was well aware as to the extent of her victimization; she just refused to accept it? Continuing to fight for Stefan and their relationship, perversely, gave her (the illusion of
( ... )
Partly because I actually did ship it right up to and including the Wickery Bridge business.
Yeah, I've been lazy in calling it S3 S/E, because that's actually my breaking point. I didn't care one way or another about S/E until the show started showing signs that the writers knew S/E was not a fairy tale, so I did ship it in the beginning of S3. Post-Wickery Bridge, it's like, "obviously this is actually a nightmare, but we're going to pretend like it's a fairy tale anyway," which leads to your other point:
Related: I feel like maybe one reason for our different reactions to B/A and S/E -- despite the similarities of the pairings -- might be how the two shows portrayed the heroine's feelings for the abusive bf?YES. I forgot to mention that, but I think it's hugely important, too. Because that's part of my confusion, like, WHY is Elena fighting so hard for this relationship that she doesn't even seem to want?* It's not romantic or even tragic, it's just masochistic
( ... )
LMAO. Bless.
I do think the show(s) had a tendency to romanticize the story (... a lot), but in some ways I also think that was a somewhat necessary part of the story -- it's the epitome of that heady, destructive (understatement) first love, the kind you feel like you "can't breathe" without, the kind that scars you for life.True. And I think BtVS walks a fine line between romanticizing the story while also problematizing it? Most shows tend to tip too far one way or the other - romanticizing gross relationships is easy to find, but I also notice dysfunctional ships that are SO dysfunctional that we as viewers can't understand what the one character possibly sees in the other. (I feel this way a lot with S/E. Like, emotionally, I could not wrap my head around it when Elena kept fighting for Stefan in S3, even though I intellectually get why she was so determined to make it work.) But with Buffy and ( ... )
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but I also notice dysfunctional ships that are SO dysfunctional that we as viewers can't understand what the one character possibly sees in the other. (I feel this way a lot with S/E. Like, emotionally, I could not wrap my head around it when Elena kept fighting for Stefan in S3, even though I intellectually get why she was so determined to make it work.)
Haha, this would be more true for me with S4 S/E, I think? S3 S/E made me furious because it all but completely erased Elena's voice by way of glossing over her trauma in favor of the romantic ~reunion. But S4 S/E is so blatantly emotionally abusive in a totally un-romanticised way that I can't see how even the staunchest apologists could see anything remotely romantic there.
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When BtVS walks that line, I feel conflicted - I want Buffy to be happy and it breaks my heart when Angel(us) treats her so cruelly, while at the same time I also love how deliciously subversive it is. But S3 S/E tips so far into abusive that I lost that sense of inner conflict? It's just as dysfunctional as B/A, but lacks that edge of heartbreaking romanticism, even though the show clearly wants me to have romantic feels. Instead, I'm just all "GTFO Stefan."
And maybe the erasing of Elena's voice is part of that? Buffy's trauma is always on full display (even if she often blames herself for it). Elena either doesn't know or doesn't care that she's a victim of abuse, and so I feel RELIEVED whenever Elena acknowledges her trauma, not heartbroken, because it means she's finally showing some self-awareness and emotional self-preservation.
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Instead, I'm just all "GTFO Stefan."
Also extremely valid.
And maybe the erasing of Elena's voice is part of that? Buffy's trauma is always on full display (even if she often blames herself for it).That is a very good point. The thing about Buffy/Angel on BtVS is that Buffy was always a more fleshed out character than Angel (who was mostly just a symbol), so his man pain never took away from her story. Not so with Stefan/Elena. Though I think Elena is and was well aware as to the extent of her victimization; she just refused to accept it? Continuing to fight for Stefan and their relationship, perversely, gave her (the illusion of ( ... )
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Yeah, I've been lazy in calling it S3 S/E, because that's actually my breaking point. I didn't care one way or another about S/E until the show started showing signs that the writers knew S/E was not a fairy tale, so I did ship it in the beginning of S3. Post-Wickery Bridge, it's like, "obviously this is actually a nightmare, but we're going to pretend like it's a fairy tale anyway," which leads to your other point:
Related: I feel like maybe one reason for our different reactions to B/A and S/E -- despite the similarities of the pairings -- might be how the two shows portrayed the heroine's feelings for the abusive bf?YES. I forgot to mention that, but I think it's hugely important, too. Because that's part of my confusion, like, WHY is Elena fighting so hard for this relationship that she doesn't even seem to want?* It's not romantic or even tragic, it's just masochistic ( ... )
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