(Untitled)

[ethrosdemon]

Is Supernatural the the dirtiest and coolest fandom ever? It certainly makes me do things I always thought I wouldn't. It feels sort of like being Jensen Ackles' girlfriend.

(Um, House? Craziest show of all time. WEISS! *omg, dies over and over again and wants to snuggle him in a way that betrays my evil

Comments

[cocombat]

I read through to the end and the whole time I'm watching Dean fall in love with his brother as a girl (as opposed to just loving his brother), and in the end we realize Sam's been in love all along, brother or no and missing, until then, that the in love part was really reserved for girl!Sam and not //Sam// and I just didn't see that take on it all.

Woah.
Ok, see we had *such* different readings of it, and I'm now pretty lost as to how much of my reaction was my own biases, and how much was authorial intent (*looks suspiciously at ethrosdemon* - but no really, leaving the reader response thing open is kinda cool).

So, I've been reading that a lot of people were all happy with how it was going, right til they got to the end and then the *owies* hit.

See, I had a totally different response. I started wigging out right from the "Don't look up."

Actually, ethrosdemon could have left out the whole last line:
"Yeah, he would give Sam what he needed, but this Sam, this one bending down to get a stone out of her flip-flop with the perfect thighs and high wailing cries, was the one he was in love with. The other Sam was his brother."
And I'd still be, 'omg, that was fucked up'.

Actually, Sammy could have stayed a girl *forever* and I'd still be 'omg, that was fucked up'. (It's just a wee added tragedy that Dean is straight and can't really love boy!Sam even like he is, even though it's already fucked up).
0_o

My reading:
Dean didn't *want* to fall in love with girl!Sammy either. It makes him feel horrible, and unhealthy, and like a very bad person. He had enough control to resist, but not quite enough to say 'No'. He never started anything, never even voiced assent, it's implied that even by the end he hasn't initiated *anything*. From the start, Sam just grabbed his hand to get him/herself off (that's when my wig detectors started going off).

Even though he's talking about how he (reluctantly) does love girl!Sammy, it's not healthy, and even in his head he refers to it as "Sam kept assaulting him".
The really sad thing about Sam's line "You got used to this." is - he hasn't. He hasn't even got used to *this* (and maybe that's a sign that Sam *is* actually just oblivious?).

The last few lines were just the cherry on the top, that a bad situation that might, just might, have actually resolved itself in time (say, with a lot of therapy) was about to get even worse.

[maygra]

We don't disagree that it's fucked up. It completely is and yes, from the beginning. Nor do I disagree that initially Dean didn't want to fall in love with girl!Sam, but imperatives of the heart aside, he did and does. I guess my take is that it takes less strength of will to say no to sex than it does to try and convicne yourself you're not in love with someone.

I'm not blind to my own biases. I totally get that Dean's primary weakness is Sam, I just also believe that the reverse is true as well. And that Sam is maybe even more aware of it (extra text, not necessarily limited to this story). But I guess what I'm seeing here is that in his inaction, Dean is putting the burden of everything on Sam which to me is either becasue he actually doesn't want to resist but also doesn't want to be the one driving it (wants Sam to come to him) or he's an asshole. And since I don't actually think Dean is an asshole in regards to Sam most of the time...reconcilling that is kind of hard for me given the rest of the points in the text where Dean acknoweldges that the only reason he hasn't pushed this with Sam the brother is because he was his brother and not his sister.

Sheesh. this story just makes my head explode with the implications. It really is brilliantly twisted.

[cocombat]

Sheesh. this story just makes my head explode with the implications. It really is brilliantly twisted.

Yeah, I know. At the beginning I was, oh yeah, gender!swap, lalalala, standard cliches, oh, Sammy's a feminist, lalala -
oh.
shit.
This is kinda twisted, and Sammy's not a feminist (well, not in the ways Dean was interpreting it - or at least that's the way I see it).

See, I don't actually *like* this Dean. I just... don't see Canon Dean as being submissive, or unable to voice his opinion, or quite that desperate for Sammy's attention. But I can see how if you just moved it round a notch...

either becasue he actually doesn't want to resist but also doesn't want to be the one driving it (wants Sam to come to him) or he's an asshole.

See, this is fully where my own biases come into play. Can't he just be conflicted?
I.e. he doesn't want it, but he's conflicted enough about it he can't say no? Or is that being an asshole?

Getting real deep and personal here, I'm in a long-ish term relationship with someone I think I would actually like to eventually have kids with, just - but not for say another 10 years?
Thing is? Not now. So very not now.
My partner has a kink for sex without condoms. He would also like to have kids. I got to a point where I had to tell him, that if he really wanted me to have sex without contraception, if he just asked me, I would. Because he mattered to me enough that that would be all it took to sway me. But that I'd still be conflicted, and still feel it would be a very bad idea, and stuff up a lot of things.
There's a lot of things that can seem like a good idea when you're in love/lust (and that's the thing. They were already in love, they're just in lust now too), that really aren't. Or rather, you *know* they aren't, in some level of your actual *brain*, and yet you do them anyway.
I mean, it's that whole 'thinking with your dick' thing, which I can attest doesn't just apply to guys, and isn't completely confined to the moment of sex.
There's just... a *huge* rift in motivation between actively pushing for something, and merely not resisting it.

Dean acknoweldges that the only reason he hasn't pushed this with Sam the brother is because he was his brother and not his sister.
I think that was Dean's last bastion of control, and he knows it, and hates himself for it. Thing is, he never pushed it with Sam the sister either (he just figures he would have, given time), he just might have had more luck *resisting* Sam the brother.

Anyway, the line between whether Sam is being manipulative or not is whether he knew what he was doing to Dean, or not. That's not entirely clear, and he can be given the benefit of the doubt (I'm going with self-delusion. I think in this fic, on some level Sam did know what he was doing, because it's slightly suspect that he never once asked. He either did, or ordered). Thing is, like I said, being straight was just one of Dean's last bastions of control. According to this fic, Sam didn't even have that. Tension just built until he could become the agressor rather than just desiring. It's just the signs that he knew how *close* Dean was to actually resisting, and ignored them that gave me 'manipulative' wiggins, rather than just 'co-dependent dysfunction kinda wiggins.

In the end, I'm just reading this fic and going actively going against the 'ship. In this fic, they shouldn't be together, regardless of gender issues, it's just *unhealthy*.
And. I'm saying that as an avid Wincester. I mean, I didn't even have anywhere to fall before this fandom, I had no issues with the incest, I'd already avidly read The Lost Boys archive on teland.com and stuff from a bunch of other fandoms. Hell, I know a couple of RL siblings.
I am kind of weirded out by my fine line between the angst I enjoy in fic, and the dysfunctions that remind me too much of real-life relationships that disturb me.

In comics fandom, thete1's done some Superman/Kon'El/Tim fic that hit about the same button for me.
*goes to wig out somewhere else...*

[cocombat]

Actually,
*pokes ethrosdemon*
I'd be totally to willing to find out that none of that was authorial intent at all, which, while not *invalidating* my own reader response (as much academic wanking has established), would let me know that maybe I'm reading my own issues into sources (well, not really mine - I only ever acted as 'counsellor' *shudder*) just a little too hard.

:P

[ethrosdemon]

email me, and we can talk. I don't want to influence anyone else who comes behind this.

[maygra]

either because he actually doesn't want to resist but also doesn't want to be the one driving it (wants Sam to come to him) or he's an asshole.

I didn't express that very well. My take is that Dean is conflicted rahter than that he's an asshole.

Conflicted rather than thinking he's an asshole, which is what I'm getting he *would* be if the whole idea that he's letting this go becasue it's *Sam* as opposed to beng unable to jump one way or the other becasue of *how he feels about Sam.* Does that make more sense?

My own biases pretty much play out that both of them can be assholes and manipultive, as siblings often are, but that basically they are decent guys/people who really do try to put the other first in as much as they are able to do so.

I mean yes, you have to trust the people you love and that has to be returned. I guess I just see a greater degree of trust between these two than some. Or maybe a greater degree of love. I find Sam pushy but not necessarily manipulative outside of the bounds they've already set for themselves.

i mean people sacrifice a lot fo things for the people they love and I'm seeing Dean do that here to. But I see it in Sam as well., he's taking an enormous risk here not jsut with Dean's heart but his own...that it turns out badly...

I mean the pain is right there and not jsut becaus eit's messed up, but becasue they are so close to what they both want and then miss it. At least, that's what I'm getting.

[cocombat]

Hey,
by the way - thank you for this, it's been really interesting and helped me sound out what exactly I'd actually gotten out of the fic.

they are so close to what they both want and then miss it.

Umm. I think the fundamental difference in reading here, is that I don't think Dean ever *wanted* it, and still doesn't (grr, the english language is so imprecise - he doesn't *want* to want it, if that makes sense?). Sam at least has come to grips with his attraction and accepted it.

[maygra]

Me too. I'm enjoying the hell out of the discussion differences aside.

so, yeah, we disagree on the fundamental reading. I think Dean did and does, and what held him back was that Sam was a guy (so, yes, oddly, didn't want to want it or so he thought until suddnely that obstacle wasn't). Sam wanted Dean regardless. that it's not reciprocated in all circumsances is just...OW.

[brynwulf]

I wanted to reread this enough times that I had a solid grip on my own take before responding, but... am I the only one who doesn't necessarily see this enging badly?

that it's not reciprocated in all circumsances is just...OW.

I think it may end that way, but only because that's where the words stop. If you keep going, you know that Dean will never look at male Sam as just "his brother" again. And Sam knows that..he's just reassuring Dean when he says "you'll get used to it."

Doesn't Sam fully expect things to continue between them once he's male again? And doesn't Dean know they will, as well. Yeah, that probably bothers him ALOT, but Dean if nothing if not adaptable. It states very clearly (to me) that Dean and Sam both wanted something physical. Dean never let himself get further than the random thought that it was a good thing Sam wasn't a girl, but Sam has obviously put more thought into it.

Once the initial obstacle was breeched via Sam becoming a girl for a month or so, I dno't think it will be that hard for either to wrap their mind around a continuation. And ok, maybe Dean is totally straight, but that can change...and I think it will.

In fandom there has always been the I'm only gay for you plot device. But, the thing is, it has basis in fact.

And um, sorry for hijacking you guys' lively discussion, but I wanted to stick my face in and say I'm really glad you started it because it helped me solidify my own thoughts.