A cross at Auschwitz and a mosque near Ground Zero
I have been aware of the controversy in the US about the proposal to build a mosque near Ground Zero but not following it all that closely. But a post by Maverick Philosopher has crystalised my thinking on the matter.
He cites a very useful analogy with Carmelite nuns taking over an abandoned building next to Auschwitz to pray for the souls. This ( Read more... )
He cites a very useful analogy with Carmelite nuns taking over an abandoned building next to Auschwitz to pray for the souls. This ( Read more... )
It's not a mosque. Who cares? Really? Who cares?
I do find offence in a lot of things Muslims do, but that's because it's very easy to find Islam offensive. I'm usually pretty clear about the distinction. I don't have a problem with Muslims, the majority of whom are cultural Muslims or moderate Muslims. I have a problem with Islam.
I get the Cordoba thing, actually have a copy of some of Maimonides medical texts floating around somewhere. Point is it's causing offence now. Like just about everything else related to this project.
Funny you know, I've often thought of Islam as the religion of perpetual outrage. Israel, Salman Rushdie, cartoons, seems they've been pissed off ever since I could watch tv.
Muslims should realise their existence is offensive, because it is. Some people, especially in New York, find Muslims genuinely offensive, people who had rellies in the Twin Towers, or firies. Right now, and for some time to come, Muslims should just deal with that.
WW2 has been largely forgotten. When I was younger my grandfather would have gone ballistic about something like that, he's a Changi survivor, but in the last ten years of his life he was pretty much over it, so yeah, the pain, hurt and enmity will be forgotten, like the Turks and Germans who march on Anzac day.
I consider it to be an appallingly misjudged attempt at reconciliation, which should have been canned when they realised the depth of feeling.
I can't even be bothered with your second last paragraph but how 'bout I tell you what to think? You do seem to need some help with it.
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You and Erudito and Newt Gingrich and Andrew Bolt and Fox News and the Tea Party are the ones who keep claiming that it's on Ground Zero. (Actually, it's two blocks away, in the same building as a nightclub and a gym.)
I dispute that WWII is ‘largely forgotten’. In fact, the more I think about it, the more vapidly stupid I think the comment is. That people have become able to see their old enemies as people is an entirely other thing.
You seem to have learned from your caricature of Muslims, though. You have basically said that all Muslims everywhere bear the burden of responsibility for 9/11, and they shouldn't try to reconcile or outreach, because the instant some Tea Party wingnut hears about it and whips up some instant outrage, (just add gullible idiots), then that is evidence that their existence is still too insulting for them to raise their heads, and they should just stay in hiding for another couple of decades, don't worry, we'll tell them when it's safe to come out.
For all your professed reading of Maimonides, you never got as far as the Guide for the Perplexed, did you.
I'm a keen history buff, and have probably forgotten more about Islam and medieval history than you'll ever know.
You know, if you say things like that, someone's going to call you on it one day.
Original English source material falls into about an A4 filing box right?
I tried to answer that, and realised that it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. We're talking Dark Ages, right? There is no original English source material. Unless you mean Ænglisc. How is your Old English? Sorry I can't help you with the original Arabic, I've been busy for several years burying myself in Middle Irish. Can we finish the dick size war now? Yes? Wonderful.
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I have a pretty dim view of SCA people as a general rule, I like finding exceptions to that rule. My old English is terrible, always was, even my Schwaben has sadly fallen to the point where I really have to work and double check everything I read. I've no Arabic at all. Can't even read the script.
Mosque is easier to type and you care, you're the one getting irritated and bolding things, never said it was on Ground Zero, WW2 - I can't believe you misunderstood my meaning. Never professed to have read Maimonides, just have a copy of some of the medical texts, somewhere.
I was pretty clear about New York, and amongst some New Yorkers Muslims of any stripe are not going to be welcome anytime soon.
Hence my stating that I think the mosque an appallingly misjudged attempt at reconciliation, which should have been canned when they realised the depth of feeling.
Muslims should try to make peace, maybe not within two blocks of Ground Zero though.
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What about Muslim New Yorkers? Did they cease to exist on 9/11? Did none of them die in the towers either?
You keep talking about Muslims and New Yorkers as if they were disjoint sets.
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I believe there's a memorial monument at GZ for everybody.
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So what? Is the outrage of some people sufficient to block the legal rights of others? Because it is a legal right that the group involved has had upheld to build that center, and if those people don't like it, then they should probably go and do something about those laws.
Otherwise it's mob ‘justice’, rule by the people who shriek the loudest, and the terrorists have won. No, really, if civil society has degraded to the point where shrieking vitriol overrides the rule of law, then bin Laden has actually and literally achieved his goal.
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And it isn't mob rule, it's common courtesy. There are lots of things that you can legally do but don't and if Daisy Khan was serious about her goals this is something she'd be thinking about.
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