Whoop, LJ seems to be back up! Fingers crossed that this goes through!
Some thoughts in no particular order...
- it might be interesting to take some video of her walking and trotting parallel to the camera and then watch it in super slow motion - I find that really interesting in that it gives you a really super-specific breakdown of exactly how each leg is moving and when in the stride it is hitting the ground. It also gives you feedback about foot-landing (toe-first/heel-first etc).
- I _really_ liked the rapport you have with her and the way you are riding her, which comes across as quiet, balanced, thoughtful and considerate. Although she gets tense at times, that seems to be more related to her difficulties with what you are asking, and overall, her ear position is lovely and mellow and you can see that she feels much more secure with you and is much more relaxed overall.
- the thing that niggled at me watching this was the movement of her right hind. it consistently seems to be shorter/slower-striding than the left hind - again if you watch in slow motion this is easier to spot, but I tried to find a couple of screen caps:
Hopefully you can see what I mean there? It might be that there's some pain/discomfort issue in the movement of that right hind or it may be a timing issue (see below). Or it may be coming from her back/the saddle? I also wondered whether she was entirely comfortable on her left fore - there seemed to be quite a lot of what looks like her throwing her head up as that left fore lands (though this may be coincidental), but it would make sense if there is a right hind issue - as it will impact left fore across the diagonal.
- the other thing that I wondered is whether it feels like she moves different legs at different speeds, as that is what it looks like in places, and it's something that my 5-gaited mare does too! So whereas with non-gaited horses, they (seem to) automatically have a good rhythm with their diagonal pairs in time with each other in trot, my mare finds that hard and it takes effort and concentration, and where she is a bit weak or when she gets a bit tired (or if she feels it is too much effort!) she starts to lose the timing across the diagonal pairs, and either the front legs go faster than the back or vice versa. If this is what is happening and it's not a pain/discomfort thing, then you could try riding to control the speed of each leg - so with my mare, I often have to think about using my core to slow down the speed/rhythm of her front legs so that the back legs can keep up! As she gets stronger/understands what you mean, then you can ask for longer/more.
- it might be worth having her checked over by a chiropractor if you haven't already - her behaviour in this video does come across more as discomfort than anything else, and it would be worth ruling that out before concentrating on re-training. Has she ever had issues with ulcers? That might explain the kicking out at the go aid as well?
Otherwise, it looks like she's heading in the right direction, and it might just be that she needs time to forget the emotional issues from the previous training and build strength for this new way of holding herself, but it would be worth ruling out pain/discomfort in my view, primarily because if they are the cause then addressing them will 'magically' fix the symptoms!
My pleasure! :-) I love a good video analysis! I have trained with Mary Wanless in the UK in her residential courses and it's an integral part of how she teaches (though usually focusing on what the rider is doing there rather than the horse!). I've found looking at video really helpful working with my mare who does all sorts of weird things with her legs! Often slowing down the video footage gives very specific detail as to where something is coming from, and I've found often what I thought were training issues turned out to be coming from something physical (though not always, obviously). I am interested to hear your longer thoughts when you have time! Cinnamon does seem like a very sweet mare! :-)
I did review the video in slow-mo on my phone at least. She does consistently land flat or slightly heel first when she steps, but in the walk she tends to catch that right hind toe, which might explain why she often (but not quite all the time) steps shorter with it. I am hoping it is simply a matter of strengthening as she has not had anything like consistent work in quite some time unfortunately.
And thanks! Those are quite the compliments! I try to be sympathetic and fair.
I don't think it'd be a bad idea to have someone out to give her a once-over and will mention that to my in-laws. She doesn't feel lame at all and I think the head bobs were coincidental to a couple things: her resisting the "go" aids with bracing rather than moving forward and also a few times as she was trying to shift to canter, but wasn't quite there and ended up heaving her front end, but not doing much behind making her look horribly lame a few steps. I hope with a few weeks of consistent work her resistance will disappear, but if it doesn't or gets worse I'll definitely push to have her checked out. I also tried a half pad this time with the saddle and may go back to working without it and I did my GP instead of the Dressage saddle, but they are both Wintecs with an extra wide gullet. She's surprisingly wide, and actually wider than her QH mother.
The fox trot is a broken diagonal gait (often described as trotting in front and walking behind) so it does look like a disunited trot and she will fox trot a little before swinging into the full trot at times. I think there's a reason Sleipnir is depicted with eight legs, those gaited Nordic horses! Sometimes it feels like Cinnamon has eight legs. Trying to even out the speed of her legs sounds like a good idea, though I think we still have some work on obedience and acceptance of the forward driving aids.
No ulcers that I am aware of. She is on 24/7 turnout pretty much, though it is drylot and fed 2 or three times a day (it varies). While always a possibility she doesn't show any other signs of ulcers.
I know in her first year under saddle I started her in the roundpen and she reached a point where she didn't want to go forward because she was getting bored with it. I may need to throw in a little ride around the house here and there as well as some pole work to keep her mentally engaged.
I love biomechanics. I talk about it a lot with my students. The horse can only be as balanced as we are and they can't really respond if our timing is off orntheir bodies aren't prepared for what is being asked either!
Some thoughts in no particular order...
- it might be interesting to take some video of her walking and trotting parallel to the camera and then watch it in super slow motion - I find that really interesting in that it gives you a really super-specific breakdown of exactly how each leg is moving and when in the stride it is hitting the ground. It also gives you feedback about foot-landing (toe-first/heel-first etc).
- I _really_ liked the rapport you have with her and the way you are riding her, which comes across as quiet, balanced, thoughtful and considerate. Although she gets tense at times, that seems to be more related to her difficulties with what you are asking, and overall, her ear position is lovely and mellow and you can see that she feels much more secure with you and is much more relaxed overall.
- the thing that niggled at me watching this was the movement of her right hind. it consistently seems to be shorter/slower-striding than the left hind - again if you watch in slow motion this is easier to spot, but I tried to find a couple of screen caps:
Hopefully you can see what I mean there? It might be that there's some pain/discomfort issue in the movement of that right hind or it may be a timing issue (see below). Or it may be coming from her back/the saddle? I also wondered whether she was entirely comfortable on her left fore - there seemed to be quite a lot of what looks like her throwing her head up as that left fore lands (though this may be coincidental), but it would make sense if there is a right hind issue - as it will impact left fore across the diagonal.
- the other thing that I wondered is whether it feels like she moves different legs at different speeds, as that is what it looks like in places, and it's something that my 5-gaited mare does too! So whereas with non-gaited horses, they (seem to) automatically have a good rhythm with their diagonal pairs in time with each other in trot, my mare finds that hard and it takes effort and concentration, and where she is a bit weak or when she gets a bit tired (or if she feels it is too much effort!) she starts to lose the timing across the diagonal pairs, and either the front legs go faster than the back or vice versa. If this is what is happening and it's not a pain/discomfort thing, then you could try riding to control the speed of each leg - so with my mare, I often have to think about using my core to slow down the speed/rhythm of her front legs so that the back legs can keep up! As she gets stronger/understands what you mean, then you can ask for longer/more.
- it might be worth having her checked over by a chiropractor if you haven't already - her behaviour in this video does come across more as discomfort than anything else, and it would be worth ruling that out before concentrating on re-training. Has she ever had issues with ulcers? That might explain the kicking out at the go aid as well?
Otherwise, it looks like she's heading in the right direction, and it might just be that she needs time to forget the emotional issues from the previous training and build strength for this new way of holding herself, but it would be worth ruling out pain/discomfort in my view, primarily because if they are the cause then addressing them will 'magically' fix the symptoms!
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I don't have time for a full response right now, but at least wanted to acknowledge yours! I should have more time tomorrow.
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And thanks! Those are quite the compliments! I try to be sympathetic and fair.
I don't think it'd be a bad idea to have someone out to give her a once-over and will mention that to my in-laws. She doesn't feel lame at all and I think the head bobs were coincidental to a couple things: her resisting the "go" aids with bracing rather than moving forward and also a few times as she was trying to shift to canter, but wasn't quite there and ended up heaving her front end, but not doing much behind making her look horribly lame a few steps. I hope with a few weeks of consistent work her resistance will disappear, but if it doesn't or gets worse I'll definitely push to have her checked out. I also tried a half pad this time with the saddle and may go back to working without it and I did my GP instead of the Dressage saddle, but they are both Wintecs with an extra wide gullet. She's surprisingly wide, and actually wider than her QH mother.
The fox trot is a broken diagonal gait (often described as trotting in front and walking behind) so it does look like a disunited trot and she will fox trot a little before swinging into the full trot at times. I think there's a reason Sleipnir is depicted with eight legs, those gaited Nordic horses! Sometimes it feels like Cinnamon has eight legs. Trying to even out the speed of her legs sounds like a good idea, though I think we still have some work on obedience and acceptance of the forward driving aids.
No ulcers that I am aware of. She is on 24/7 turnout pretty much, though it is drylot and fed 2 or three times a day (it varies). While always a possibility she doesn't show any other signs of ulcers.
I know in her first year under saddle I started her in the roundpen and she reached a point where she didn't want to go forward because she was getting bored with it. I may need to throw in a little ride around the house here and there as well as some pole work to keep her mentally engaged.
I love biomechanics. I talk about it a lot with my students. The horse can only be as balanced as we are and they can't really respond if our timing is off orntheir bodies aren't prepared for what is being asked either!
Thanks again!
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