Re: Sorry for the missive... :pepea_pteroentaOctober 14 2011, 13:29:26 UTC
Very good points about Mary's life being on hold... but it always has, hasn't it? I find Mary having done nothing for the first two years of the war to be less amazing than the fact that she had three seasons in London before S01 starts and is still unmarried! Bex and I have been discussing it a lot for the "Mary's first season RP" we're going to be doing but there's an aspect of it that just doesn't make sense, even if she did have Patrick on the back burner? Did she refuse lots of people or, for some reason, did nobody offer for her? I have opinions on that, but that's probably too much of a tangent for here.
Between 1914 and 1916 I can understand it much better. The war would take a lot of young, marriageable men off the market even at the beginning narrowing the pool considerably, especially for someone of Mary's age and reputation. Already in the 1914 season we saw she was getting fewer invitations. I think it's entirely plausible that nobody came on the scene at all. Also, she was heartbroken. It takes a long time to be able to move on from someone long enough to consider another person. And Matthew was absent. I'm extrapolating wildly from how I would feel/have felt in such a situation - as long as Matthew remained at a distance she could imagine him statically as he was - and even dream of a reunion. Then she meets Sir Richard. He is interested in her. In my head-canon they actually have a kind of chemistry. But she wouldn't think of him more than idly. Then Lavinia comes on the scene. Matthew has moved on. Mary is now forced to confront her situation for the first time in two years and Carlisle is the only viable option. The moment has come to move on with her life because she has to - and that's Mary's character, not sitting back and saying all happiness is over, like Anna. So I get the pre-S02 developments more easily than I can understand pre-S01 and indeed the time jumps in S02. I can appreciate that at some level she doesn't want to commit to totally to Carlisle because it's so irrevocable and, let's face it, Mary isn't good at saying "yes" at the best of times! But I don't understand it from Carlisle's end. There must be so many aristocratic women cheated out of husbands thanks to the war - why stick with Mary, even if he does kind of love her? Nor do I understand why, after Mary decides firmly to accept Carlisle, she... doesn't tell him! To me, that isn't something that can be explained away by her character - that just simply doesn't make sense!
I do think JF is making an effort -- putting those shippy words in other character's mouths, and letting Mary defend herself and Matthew both moving on.
I would agree with this if... (a) Matthew wasn't following Mary around with puppy dog eyes and not being shown having any scenes with Lavinia - whatever he feels, the viewers are not being shown it; (b) we all know that Mary's lying; (c) it's actually incredibly insensitive and a little bit implausible for so many characters to be forcing a relationship on two people two years after nothing came of it and one of them is actually engaged to someone else!
Because JF (correctly) realized he couldn't make Matthew unattached and believably keep M/M apart (and had to keep Mary unattached to "soften her"). Because, IMO, in S1, Matthew was a character very much defined by his feelings for Mary.
Yes, I agree with this. I just don't like it!
I do think, however, that just as Lavinia and Carlisle have lacked development, so will Matthew's injury. I don't think it will define Mary in these last four eps. Mainly because I have NEVER believed the show intends to keep Matthew injured for that long, AND it is a show that loves its time jumps. IDK.
I also think that is quite likely but... that is RUBBISH! What is the point of seriously wounding a major character if it's not even going to be a major, long-standing plot arc? So I hope you're wrong about this. (Though, um, obviously I hope Matthew is not permanently injured too and think it is very unlikely for reasons involving chimney sweeps.)
Re: Sorry for the missive... :pepea_pteroentaOctober 14 2011, 13:30:07 UTC
but if she had (ahem) Matthew right now, she'd have to...do something else with her life! So, I have to believe this Matthew-centric focus will dissipate once she...has (ahem) Matthew. ;p
Agreed. Maybe I'm projecting here, but I don't see Mary as a naturally clingy or slushy person in a relationship. She would be very private and keep things behind closed doors that are meant to be! I don't think M/M's married life in public would be terribly different to what it already is!
Seriously, I think this all turns on what happens when M/M get together. If Mary is still all about Matthew, I'll accept her character has fundamentally changed to make her more popular. But if she gets her groove back, then...war has a way of distinguishing between the things that matter and the things that don't. ;p
I hope you're right.
The thing that your reply has highlighted to me, however, is that JF has clearly decided to keep M/M apart not because it is what is the most natural development for their characters but because it suits his plot and what he thinks viewers would respond to best in a show. I certainly don't disagree that I prefer shipping who haven't got together but I'd rather it was done in a more... exciting way, I guess. (Not the best word but still.) There is LOTS he could do to keep them apart that would nevertheless advance Mary's life. She could marry Carlisle and then in S03 go through a divorce scandal or he could be murdered over something unscrupulous. I mean, there are so, so many ways I could imagine taking M/M's story post S01 keeping their relationship lying in wait for end-game but so that they're kept apart through the war, which doesn't involve implausible time jumps, non-characters and so on.
Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 14 2011, 15:20:19 UTC
Maybe I'm just one of the audience Fellowes is catering too, but it would drive me insane and make me scream if they prolonged Mary/Matthew til series 3 and had them marry other people!
Whilst the current set up is less than perfect, I far prefer that to a more realistic set up in series 3 or later! Guess here what I want and my romantic notions overcome what is not necessary as realistic a story. Though to be fair, I can see well enough this story happening and it doesn't lack credibility for me... Yes, things happen off screen which we have to accept, but that's not been a problem for me and I'm willing to forgive that because DA is an ensemble drama. Plus, maybe it's a tad far fetched, but stranger things happen in real life! And I'm very willing to forgive if we get Mary/Matthew together sooner! LOL!
That's just me though and what I like and that I actually have no problem accepting what we're told!!
Oh and as for Mary telling Carlisle, well, she HASN'T actually said yes to him yet (she tells Robert so), but she has decided. I have a very strong feeling he'll find out this episode (and that's not from any spoilers other than the episode 5 promo after episode 4!)
Between 1914 and 1916 I can understand it much better. The war would take a lot of young, marriageable men off the market even at the beginning narrowing the pool considerably, especially for someone of Mary's age and reputation. Already in the 1914 season we saw she was getting fewer invitations. I think it's entirely plausible that nobody came on the scene at all. Also, she was heartbroken. It takes a long time to be able to move on from someone long enough to consider another person. And Matthew was absent. I'm extrapolating wildly from how I would feel/have felt in such a situation - as long as Matthew remained at a distance she could imagine him statically as he was - and even dream of a reunion. Then she meets Sir Richard. He is interested in her. In my head-canon they actually have a kind of chemistry. But she wouldn't think of him more than idly. Then Lavinia comes on the scene. Matthew has moved on. Mary is now forced to confront her situation for the first time in two years and Carlisle is the only viable option. The moment has come to move on with her life because she has to - and that's Mary's character, not sitting back and saying all happiness is over, like Anna. So I get the pre-S02 developments more easily than I can understand pre-S01 and indeed the time jumps in S02. I can appreciate that at some level she doesn't want to commit to totally to Carlisle because it's so irrevocable and, let's face it, Mary isn't good at saying "yes" at the best of times! But I don't understand it from Carlisle's end. There must be so many aristocratic women cheated out of husbands thanks to the war - why stick with Mary, even if he does kind of love her? Nor do I understand why, after Mary decides firmly to accept Carlisle, she... doesn't tell him! To me, that isn't something that can be explained away by her character - that just simply doesn't make sense!
I do think JF is making an effort -- putting those shippy words in other character's mouths, and letting Mary defend herself and Matthew both moving on.
I would agree with this if... (a) Matthew wasn't following Mary around with puppy dog eyes and not being shown having any scenes with Lavinia - whatever he feels, the viewers are not being shown it; (b) we all know that Mary's lying; (c) it's actually incredibly insensitive and a little bit implausible for so many characters to be forcing a relationship on two people two years after nothing came of it and one of them is actually engaged to someone else!
Because JF (correctly) realized he couldn't make Matthew unattached and believably keep M/M apart (and had to keep Mary unattached to "soften her"). Because, IMO, in S1, Matthew was a character very much defined by his feelings for Mary.
Yes, I agree with this. I just don't like it!
I do think, however, that just as Lavinia and Carlisle have lacked development, so will Matthew's injury. I don't think it will define Mary in these last four eps. Mainly because I have NEVER believed the show intends to keep Matthew injured for that long, AND it is a show that loves its time jumps. IDK.
I also think that is quite likely but... that is RUBBISH! What is the point of seriously wounding a major character if it's not even going to be a major, long-standing plot arc? So I hope you're wrong about this. (Though, um, obviously I hope Matthew is not permanently injured too and think it is very unlikely for reasons involving chimney sweeps.)
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Agreed. Maybe I'm projecting here, but I don't see Mary as a naturally clingy or slushy person in a relationship. She would be very private and keep things behind closed doors that are meant to be! I don't think M/M's married life in public would be terribly different to what it already is!
Seriously, I think this all turns on what happens when M/M get together. If Mary is still all about Matthew, I'll accept her character has fundamentally changed to make her more popular. But if she gets her groove back, then...war has a way of distinguishing between the things that matter and the things that don't. ;p
I hope you're right.
The thing that your reply has highlighted to me, however, is that JF has clearly decided to keep M/M apart not because it is what is the most natural development for their characters but because it suits his plot and what he thinks viewers would respond to best in a show. I certainly don't disagree that I prefer shipping who haven't got together but I'd rather it was done in a more... exciting way, I guess. (Not the best word but still.) There is LOTS he could do to keep them apart that would nevertheless advance Mary's life. She could marry Carlisle and then in S03 go through a divorce scandal or he could be murdered over something unscrupulous. I mean, there are so, so many ways I could imagine taking M/M's story post S01 keeping their relationship lying in wait for end-game but so that they're kept apart through the war, which doesn't involve implausible time jumps, non-characters and so on.
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Whilst the current set up is less than perfect, I far prefer that to a more realistic set up in series 3 or later! Guess here what I want and my romantic notions overcome what is not necessary as realistic a story. Though to be fair, I can see well enough this story happening and it doesn't lack credibility for me... Yes, things happen off screen which we have to accept, but that's not been a problem for me and I'm willing to forgive that because DA is an ensemble drama. Plus, maybe it's a tad far fetched, but stranger things happen in real life! And I'm very willing to forgive if we get Mary/Matthew together sooner! LOL!
That's just me though and what I like and that I actually have no problem accepting what we're told!!
Oh and as for Mary telling Carlisle, well, she HASN'T actually said yes to him yet (she tells Robert so), but she has decided. I have a very strong feeling he'll find out this episode (and that's not from any spoilers other than the episode 5 promo after episode 4!)
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