Sorry for the missive... :peolivetOctober 12 2011, 13:45:19 UTC
Awesome post, per usual. I actually think this starts with the idea that Mary put her life on "pause" for two years at the beginning of S2.
Seriously. What WAS she doing? She didn't marry. She ONLY mentions Carlisle AFTER Edith mentions Matthew's engagement. What happened when M/C "met at Clifton?" Was she seriously considering him? Has Mary had a dozen suitors and turned them all down? Did she walk around in a daze?
Two years is a LONG TIME. Long enough for Matthew (whose feelings for Mary I've NEVER questioned) to get engaged! I get Mary's older now, but she's still stunningly beautiful! However, simply by making Mary unattached, JF was begging for this to happen.
I agree it's a failure of show, not character. But I think JF would've had a difficult time pushing his M/M agenda without it. Thinking about this, however, given how DA is structured in S2, I think he kind of had no choice. Matthew isn't at DA full-time, so it's not like M/M cross paths frequently. So, obviously Mary's "all about Matthew-ness" is magnified on the show because...Matthew's there (or has just been there). I do think JF is making an effort -- putting those shippy words in other character's mouths, and letting Mary defend herself and Matthew both moving on.
But since 2x01, I've believed Lavinia is an obstacle for Matthew, not Mary. Because JF (correctly) realized he couldn't make Matthew unattached and believably keep M/M apart (and had to keep Mary unattached to "soften her"). Because, IMO, in S1, Matthew was a character very much defined by his feelings for Mary. It's more noticeable with Mary, because she was the more developed and interesting and flawed. Like you said long ago, arrogant!cousin and sweet!cousin. :)
The problem with Carlisle is he emphasizes all the qualities people hated about S1 Mary. Make Carlisle more interesting, you make Mary less sympathetic (not JF's goal, clearly). Therefore, Carlisle has to be sort of boring and (per the 2x05 promo) kind of evil.
But the reason for all this, IMO -- Lavinia and Carlisle's lack of development, scandal, injury is due to one thing: M/M aren't together for a stupid reason. It's not like shows where "characters must go through changes in order to be together." (if we accept that knowing about the scandal wouldn't have changed Matthew's feelings, and that Mary would've ultimately accepted Matthew had he given her the chance).
So, JF is playing with a loaded deck. He needs quantity of obstacles, not quality -- because he kept the characters apart mainly because of ignorance. If Mary had confessed, and Matthew had rejected her...THEN you need character growth to reunite them. But he didn't. So...what exactly is keeping them apart? Scandal ignorance, two love interests, injury -- what ISN'T keeping them apart?
I do think, however, that just as Lavinia and Carlisle have lacked development, so will Matthew's injury. I don't think it will define Mary in these last four eps. Mainly because I have NEVER believed the show intends to keep Matthew injured for that long, AND it is a show that loves its time jumps. IDK.
JF HAS to know that M/M were VERY popular before S2, because of their witty, clever bantering and interplay. They may be UBERpopular right now, because of Mary's undying devotion, but if she had (ahem) Matthew right now, she'd have to...do something else with her life! So, I have to believe this Matthew-centric focus will dissipate once she...has (ahem) Matthew. ;p
I realize this is more an M/M argument than a Mary one, but it's not like Mary had to realize her feelings for Matthew (she was aware of them in ep 7) -- JF just had to make it explicit. Show, don't tell, if you will. If Mary is one of his favorite characters AND he plans on reuniting M/M, then he must have SOME other plans for Mary. He just couldn't go through with them given the structure of DA in S2 and the nature of wartime.
Seriously, I think this all turns on what happens when M/M get together. If Mary is still all about Matthew, I'll accept her character has fundamentally changed to make her more popular. But if she gets her groove back, then...war has a way of distinguishing between the things that matter and the things that don't. ;p
Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 12 2011, 14:23:13 UTC
Interesting... I do agree that Fellowes is caught in a corner a bit, he HAS to have something to keep M/M apart, it can't just be their stubborness.
I just wish Mary and Matthew had more stories away from each other.
Actually, up until now, I've really liked the whole show and M/M and all their interactions. I'm just really worried what the future will bring - I think DA my just fall down the wrong side of the good story vs ridiculous edge
Re: Sorry for the missive... :peolivetOctober 12 2011, 14:55:21 UTC
The problem with M/M having more stories away from each other is...they aren't the "main characters." DA is an ensemble show, so everyone needs screentime. :p Matthew at least has "the war" -- but if you think about how many new characters have been added this season (Lavinia, Carlisle, Vera, Ethel, Lang) as well as the more "minor" characters who have more prominent storylines (Branson, Moseley, Dr. Clarkson)...screentime is at a premium. In a way, it makes perfect sense that L/C haven't been developed -- there's been no time! :p
As for DA turning ridiculous...well, this is the show that had a perfectly healthy man die during sex, and a late-in-life pregnancy ended on a bar of soap. :/ I'd say whatever soapy path they take...they crossed that line a LONG time ago... ;)
Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 12 2011, 14:59:40 UTC
Yeah, I agree about the lack of time, but it would still have been nice (but then, IMO they should just cut out all the Anna/Bates and put other stories there instead :-) )
TBH, considering time frame, I actually think they do a good enough job on Lavinia and Carlisle.
As for being ridiculous, I could forgive the Pamuk and soap incident, but this one just feels too much! Especially as I just know the Mary/Matthew/Lavinia fallout will make me want to pull my hair out in frustration and be too melodramatic!
Re: Sorry for the missive... :pepea_pteroentaOctober 14 2011, 13:34:19 UTC
I think the issue with the soap-opera style plots is, as Laura hints at, the problem is not with an overly dramatic plot but how it's dealt with.
The Pamuk incident on paper is ridiculous (and I'm not going to lie if I say that I laughed quite a lot at Mary, Anna and Cora dragging his body while Daisy peeps round the door) but what made it work is how its effects impacted on Mary (mostly) but also on Cora and Daisy and how it changed their relationships and the sobriety with which that was dealt with.
I firmly believe that a plot can be as implausible as you like so long as the human fallout is done believably. So I really hope you're wrong, Laura, about the M/M/L fall-out - I haven't read any spoilers on that side of the thing so you may have information I'm not aware of - but I perfectly see your point there.
Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 14 2011, 15:02:43 UTC
Rest assurred, I know no plot spoilers about the actual emotional fallout and what not, I'm just speculating that it'll probably be very frustrating and melodramatic with what happens to the characters (all of them really).
I think if any show can get away with this sort of thing, it IS DA, so I'm hoping they do. I'm prepared for the worst anyway, (in terms of soap opera OTTness) so I can't be disappointed! LOL!
I don't think I could stop watching it, but I may just end up ranting a lot if the show doesn't pull it off...
Re: Sorry for the missive... :pepea_pteroentaOctober 14 2011, 13:29:26 UTC
Very good points about Mary's life being on hold... but it always has, hasn't it? I find Mary having done nothing for the first two years of the war to be less amazing than the fact that she had three seasons in London before S01 starts and is still unmarried! Bex and I have been discussing it a lot for the "Mary's first season RP" we're going to be doing but there's an aspect of it that just doesn't make sense, even if she did have Patrick on the back burner? Did she refuse lots of people or, for some reason, did nobody offer for her? I have opinions on that, but that's probably too much of a tangent for here.
Between 1914 and 1916 I can understand it much better. The war would take a lot of young, marriageable men off the market even at the beginning narrowing the pool considerably, especially for someone of Mary's age and reputation. Already in the 1914 season we saw she was getting fewer invitations. I think it's entirely plausible that nobody came on the scene at all. Also, she was heartbroken. It takes a long time to be able to move on from someone long enough to consider another person. And Matthew was absent. I'm extrapolating wildly from how I would feel/have felt in such a situation - as long as Matthew remained at a distance she could imagine him statically as he was - and even dream of a reunion. Then she meets Sir Richard. He is interested in her. In my head-canon they actually have a kind of chemistry. But she wouldn't think of him more than idly. Then Lavinia comes on the scene. Matthew has moved on. Mary is now forced to confront her situation for the first time in two years and Carlisle is the only viable option. The moment has come to move on with her life because she has to - and that's Mary's character, not sitting back and saying all happiness is over, like Anna. So I get the pre-S02 developments more easily than I can understand pre-S01 and indeed the time jumps in S02. I can appreciate that at some level she doesn't want to commit to totally to Carlisle because it's so irrevocable and, let's face it, Mary isn't good at saying "yes" at the best of times! But I don't understand it from Carlisle's end. There must be so many aristocratic women cheated out of husbands thanks to the war - why stick with Mary, even if he does kind of love her? Nor do I understand why, after Mary decides firmly to accept Carlisle, she... doesn't tell him! To me, that isn't something that can be explained away by her character - that just simply doesn't make sense!
I do think JF is making an effort -- putting those shippy words in other character's mouths, and letting Mary defend herself and Matthew both moving on.
I would agree with this if... (a) Matthew wasn't following Mary around with puppy dog eyes and not being shown having any scenes with Lavinia - whatever he feels, the viewers are not being shown it; (b) we all know that Mary's lying; (c) it's actually incredibly insensitive and a little bit implausible for so many characters to be forcing a relationship on two people two years after nothing came of it and one of them is actually engaged to someone else!
Because JF (correctly) realized he couldn't make Matthew unattached and believably keep M/M apart (and had to keep Mary unattached to "soften her"). Because, IMO, in S1, Matthew was a character very much defined by his feelings for Mary.
Yes, I agree with this. I just don't like it!
I do think, however, that just as Lavinia and Carlisle have lacked development, so will Matthew's injury. I don't think it will define Mary in these last four eps. Mainly because I have NEVER believed the show intends to keep Matthew injured for that long, AND it is a show that loves its time jumps. IDK.
I also think that is quite likely but... that is RUBBISH! What is the point of seriously wounding a major character if it's not even going to be a major, long-standing plot arc? So I hope you're wrong about this. (Though, um, obviously I hope Matthew is not permanently injured too and think it is very unlikely for reasons involving chimney sweeps.)
Re: Sorry for the missive... :pepea_pteroentaOctober 14 2011, 13:30:07 UTC
but if she had (ahem) Matthew right now, she'd have to...do something else with her life! So, I have to believe this Matthew-centric focus will dissipate once she...has (ahem) Matthew. ;p
Agreed. Maybe I'm projecting here, but I don't see Mary as a naturally clingy or slushy person in a relationship. She would be very private and keep things behind closed doors that are meant to be! I don't think M/M's married life in public would be terribly different to what it already is!
Seriously, I think this all turns on what happens when M/M get together. If Mary is still all about Matthew, I'll accept her character has fundamentally changed to make her more popular. But if she gets her groove back, then...war has a way of distinguishing between the things that matter and the things that don't. ;p
I hope you're right.
The thing that your reply has highlighted to me, however, is that JF has clearly decided to keep M/M apart not because it is what is the most natural development for their characters but because it suits his plot and what he thinks viewers would respond to best in a show. I certainly don't disagree that I prefer shipping who haven't got together but I'd rather it was done in a more... exciting way, I guess. (Not the best word but still.) There is LOTS he could do to keep them apart that would nevertheless advance Mary's life. She could marry Carlisle and then in S03 go through a divorce scandal or he could be murdered over something unscrupulous. I mean, there are so, so many ways I could imagine taking M/M's story post S01 keeping their relationship lying in wait for end-game but so that they're kept apart through the war, which doesn't involve implausible time jumps, non-characters and so on.
Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 14 2011, 15:20:19 UTC
Maybe I'm just one of the audience Fellowes is catering too, but it would drive me insane and make me scream if they prolonged Mary/Matthew til series 3 and had them marry other people!
Whilst the current set up is less than perfect, I far prefer that to a more realistic set up in series 3 or later! Guess here what I want and my romantic notions overcome what is not necessary as realistic a story. Though to be fair, I can see well enough this story happening and it doesn't lack credibility for me... Yes, things happen off screen which we have to accept, but that's not been a problem for me and I'm willing to forgive that because DA is an ensemble drama. Plus, maybe it's a tad far fetched, but stranger things happen in real life! And I'm very willing to forgive if we get Mary/Matthew together sooner! LOL!
That's just me though and what I like and that I actually have no problem accepting what we're told!!
Oh and as for Mary telling Carlisle, well, she HASN'T actually said yes to him yet (she tells Robert so), but she has decided. I have a very strong feeling he'll find out this episode (and that's not from any spoilers other than the episode 5 promo after episode 4!)
Seriously. What WAS she doing? She didn't marry. She ONLY mentions Carlisle AFTER Edith mentions Matthew's engagement. What happened when M/C "met at Clifton?" Was she seriously considering him? Has Mary had a dozen suitors and turned them all down? Did she walk around in a daze?
Two years is a LONG TIME. Long enough for Matthew (whose feelings for Mary I've NEVER questioned) to get engaged! I get Mary's older now, but she's still stunningly beautiful! However, simply by making Mary unattached, JF was begging for this to happen.
I agree it's a failure of show, not character. But I think JF would've had a difficult time pushing his M/M agenda without it. Thinking about this, however, given how DA is structured in S2, I think he kind of had no choice. Matthew isn't at DA full-time, so it's not like M/M cross paths frequently. So, obviously Mary's "all about Matthew-ness" is magnified on the show because...Matthew's there (or has just been there). I do think JF is making an effort -- putting those shippy words in other character's mouths, and letting Mary defend herself and Matthew both moving on.
But since 2x01, I've believed Lavinia is an obstacle for Matthew, not Mary. Because JF (correctly) realized he couldn't make Matthew unattached and believably keep M/M apart (and had to keep Mary unattached to "soften her"). Because, IMO, in S1, Matthew was a character very much defined by his feelings for Mary. It's more noticeable with Mary, because she was the more developed and interesting and flawed. Like you said long ago, arrogant!cousin and sweet!cousin. :)
The problem with Carlisle is he emphasizes all the qualities people hated about S1 Mary. Make Carlisle more interesting, you make Mary less sympathetic (not JF's goal, clearly). Therefore, Carlisle has to be sort of boring and (per the 2x05 promo) kind of evil.
But the reason for all this, IMO -- Lavinia and Carlisle's lack of development, scandal, injury is due to one thing: M/M aren't together for a stupid reason. It's not like shows where "characters must go through changes in order to be together." (if we accept that knowing about the scandal wouldn't have changed Matthew's feelings, and that Mary would've ultimately accepted Matthew had he given her the chance).
So, JF is playing with a loaded deck. He needs quantity of obstacles, not quality -- because he kept the characters apart mainly because of ignorance. If Mary had confessed, and Matthew had rejected her...THEN you need character growth to reunite them. But he didn't. So...what exactly is keeping them apart? Scandal ignorance, two love interests, injury -- what ISN'T keeping them apart?
I do think, however, that just as Lavinia and Carlisle have lacked development, so will Matthew's injury. I don't think it will define Mary in these last four eps. Mainly because I have NEVER believed the show intends to keep Matthew injured for that long, AND it is a show that loves its time jumps. IDK.
JF HAS to know that M/M were VERY popular before S2, because of their witty, clever bantering and interplay. They may be UBERpopular right now, because of Mary's undying devotion, but if she had (ahem) Matthew right now, she'd have to...do something else with her life! So, I have to believe this Matthew-centric focus will dissipate once she...has (ahem) Matthew. ;p
I realize this is more an M/M argument than a Mary one, but it's not like Mary had to realize her feelings for Matthew (she was aware of them in ep 7) -- JF just had to make it explicit. Show, don't tell, if you will. If Mary is one of his favorite characters AND he plans on reuniting M/M, then he must have SOME other plans for Mary. He just couldn't go through with them given the structure of DA in S2 and the nature of wartime.
Seriously, I think this all turns on what happens when M/M get together. If Mary is still all about Matthew, I'll accept her character has fundamentally changed to make her more popular. But if she gets her groove back, then...war has a way of distinguishing between the things that matter and the things that don't. ;p
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I just wish Mary and Matthew had more stories away from each other.
Actually, up until now, I've really liked the whole show and M/M and all their interactions. I'm just really worried what the future will bring - I think DA my just fall down the wrong side of the good story vs ridiculous edge
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As for DA turning ridiculous...well, this is the show that had a perfectly healthy man die during sex, and a late-in-life pregnancy ended on a bar of soap. :/ I'd say whatever soapy path they take...they crossed that line a LONG time ago... ;)
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TBH, considering time frame, I actually think they do a good enough job on Lavinia and Carlisle.
As for being ridiculous, I could forgive the Pamuk and soap incident, but this one just feels too much! Especially as I just know the Mary/Matthew/Lavinia fallout will make me want to pull my hair out in frustration and be too melodramatic!
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The Pamuk incident on paper is ridiculous (and I'm not going to lie if I say that I laughed quite a lot at Mary, Anna and Cora dragging his body while Daisy peeps round the door) but what made it work is how its effects impacted on Mary (mostly) but also on Cora and Daisy and how it changed their relationships and the sobriety with which that was dealt with.
I firmly believe that a plot can be as implausible as you like so long as the human fallout is done believably. So I really hope you're wrong, Laura, about the M/M/L fall-out - I haven't read any spoilers on that side of the thing so you may have information I'm not aware of - but I perfectly see your point there.
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I think if any show can get away with this sort of thing, it IS DA, so I'm hoping they do. I'm prepared for the worst anyway, (in terms of soap opera OTTness) so I can't be disappointed! LOL!
I don't think I could stop watching it, but I may just end up ranting a lot if the show doesn't pull it off...
Fingers crossed they do!
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Between 1914 and 1916 I can understand it much better. The war would take a lot of young, marriageable men off the market even at the beginning narrowing the pool considerably, especially for someone of Mary's age and reputation. Already in the 1914 season we saw she was getting fewer invitations. I think it's entirely plausible that nobody came on the scene at all. Also, she was heartbroken. It takes a long time to be able to move on from someone long enough to consider another person. And Matthew was absent. I'm extrapolating wildly from how I would feel/have felt in such a situation - as long as Matthew remained at a distance she could imagine him statically as he was - and even dream of a reunion. Then she meets Sir Richard. He is interested in her. In my head-canon they actually have a kind of chemistry. But she wouldn't think of him more than idly. Then Lavinia comes on the scene. Matthew has moved on. Mary is now forced to confront her situation for the first time in two years and Carlisle is the only viable option. The moment has come to move on with her life because she has to - and that's Mary's character, not sitting back and saying all happiness is over, like Anna. So I get the pre-S02 developments more easily than I can understand pre-S01 and indeed the time jumps in S02. I can appreciate that at some level she doesn't want to commit to totally to Carlisle because it's so irrevocable and, let's face it, Mary isn't good at saying "yes" at the best of times! But I don't understand it from Carlisle's end. There must be so many aristocratic women cheated out of husbands thanks to the war - why stick with Mary, even if he does kind of love her? Nor do I understand why, after Mary decides firmly to accept Carlisle, she... doesn't tell him! To me, that isn't something that can be explained away by her character - that just simply doesn't make sense!
I do think JF is making an effort -- putting those shippy words in other character's mouths, and letting Mary defend herself and Matthew both moving on.
I would agree with this if... (a) Matthew wasn't following Mary around with puppy dog eyes and not being shown having any scenes with Lavinia - whatever he feels, the viewers are not being shown it; (b) we all know that Mary's lying; (c) it's actually incredibly insensitive and a little bit implausible for so many characters to be forcing a relationship on two people two years after nothing came of it and one of them is actually engaged to someone else!
Because JF (correctly) realized he couldn't make Matthew unattached and believably keep M/M apart (and had to keep Mary unattached to "soften her"). Because, IMO, in S1, Matthew was a character very much defined by his feelings for Mary.
Yes, I agree with this. I just don't like it!
I do think, however, that just as Lavinia and Carlisle have lacked development, so will Matthew's injury. I don't think it will define Mary in these last four eps. Mainly because I have NEVER believed the show intends to keep Matthew injured for that long, AND it is a show that loves its time jumps. IDK.
I also think that is quite likely but... that is RUBBISH! What is the point of seriously wounding a major character if it's not even going to be a major, long-standing plot arc? So I hope you're wrong about this. (Though, um, obviously I hope Matthew is not permanently injured too and think it is very unlikely for reasons involving chimney sweeps.)
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Agreed. Maybe I'm projecting here, but I don't see Mary as a naturally clingy or slushy person in a relationship. She would be very private and keep things behind closed doors that are meant to be! I don't think M/M's married life in public would be terribly different to what it already is!
Seriously, I think this all turns on what happens when M/M get together. If Mary is still all about Matthew, I'll accept her character has fundamentally changed to make her more popular. But if she gets her groove back, then...war has a way of distinguishing between the things that matter and the things that don't. ;p
I hope you're right.
The thing that your reply has highlighted to me, however, is that JF has clearly decided to keep M/M apart not because it is what is the most natural development for their characters but because it suits his plot and what he thinks viewers would respond to best in a show. I certainly don't disagree that I prefer shipping who haven't got together but I'd rather it was done in a more... exciting way, I guess. (Not the best word but still.) There is LOTS he could do to keep them apart that would nevertheless advance Mary's life. She could marry Carlisle and then in S03 go through a divorce scandal or he could be murdered over something unscrupulous. I mean, there are so, so many ways I could imagine taking M/M's story post S01 keeping their relationship lying in wait for end-game but so that they're kept apart through the war, which doesn't involve implausible time jumps, non-characters and so on.
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Whilst the current set up is less than perfect, I far prefer that to a more realistic set up in series 3 or later! Guess here what I want and my romantic notions overcome what is not necessary as realistic a story. Though to be fair, I can see well enough this story happening and it doesn't lack credibility for me... Yes, things happen off screen which we have to accept, but that's not been a problem for me and I'm willing to forgive that because DA is an ensemble drama. Plus, maybe it's a tad far fetched, but stranger things happen in real life! And I'm very willing to forgive if we get Mary/Matthew together sooner! LOL!
That's just me though and what I like and that I actually have no problem accepting what we're told!!
Oh and as for Mary telling Carlisle, well, she HASN'T actually said yes to him yet (she tells Robert so), but she has decided. I have a very strong feeling he'll find out this episode (and that's not from any spoilers other than the episode 5 promo after episode 4!)
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