"Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick and wicked"
OK, I promised eolivet an analysis of that intriguing line of Mary's from S02E03 "The truth is we're very much alike so naturally I think she's perfect".
I've already written about it quite a bit in this post so this will quote and use that (because I'm lazy).
( Mary is like an onion: they both have layers. Also SPOILERS )
I've already written about it quite a bit in this post so this will quote and use that (because I'm lazy).
( Mary is like an onion: they both have layers. Also SPOILERS )
Well, of course it was! Oh, I don't know about correct... rochvelleth has already managed to add another layer to it above!
But...Lavinia's "scandal" is she loves her father so much, she stole secrets to save her family! It's the nicest, most selfless thing anyone could do (Lavinia's a veritable Jean Valjean!)
Yes, morally it was a beautiful act, worthy of a Disney heroine. However, legally she still stole the secrets. And if she got caught she could get into trouble, I would imagine. The public would be on her side, I would expect (they tend to be against politicians misbehaving) but it would nevertheless be a scandal. And the story of the young beauty who stole secrets to protect her dear father... It would be an excellent story!
Stop it with the tone of cynicism, self!
Do you believe if Lavinia was revealed to be the Whore of Babylon that Mary would've told Matthew as much?
No. It would not have been Mary's place to do so (and she knows full well that in these situations it's very often the messenger who gets shot even if Violet and Rosamund seem not to) and we can see that she wasn't going to do anything before talking to Lavinia herself and sorting out what was truth and rumour. If Lavinia's secret had been that she was the Whore of Babylon, what would she have done? An interesting question (and an interesting AU fic?). I don't think she would have told Matthew even then (see reasons above) but she would have strongly encouraged Lavinia to tell him, perhaps even supporting her while she did. Perhaps she might feel that if Lavinia somehow manages to do what she did not have the courage to do, then that can somehow put her own failure there to rest? IDK - it would be interesting to write a fic on that premise. (No, I'm not volunteering!)
What I do think, however, would be if Lavinia did have a bad secret and it happened to come out and either because of that or for other reasons her relationship with Matthew came to an end, then she would not be displeased. But there's a big difference between secretly wishing she could be got rid of and actively pursuing that against someone else's happiness.
Does Rosamund know about Mary's scandal (I forget...she must've heard rumors...)? Violet certainly does. Did they all just...forget? Granted, Mary holds the trump card with Violet, but...still! Talking about outing scandals of young women with a straight face...ay yi yi...
I never thought of that before... goodness... I'm not sure Rosamund knows the actual truth though she must have heard rumours. I think Violet would just assume Mary can tough it out. (Which she can.)
Tangentially, I do love how in a way these three women are the most similar in terms of three generations of Crawley women. You can see a lot of Violet in both Rosamund and Mary, and actually some Rosamund in Mary. (I love that line of Rosamund's "You know me, I must say what I think!" - same voice as Mary completely; also Violet's line "She's never so righteous as when she's in the wrong". I don't actually think that applies to Mary ("I apologise when I'm in the wrong") but that defensiveness when pressed on a point does apply.) I just really like Violet-Rosamund-Mary!
What's interesting is that Matthew was all "Scandal? What? Tell me more!" Oh man, and his depiction of it as "some horrid stain?" You'd think this would've given us some insight into how Matthew might react when the time comes, but...I still don't know!!!
Another thing I did not think of which is very interesting! I don't think, as you say, that much can be read into Matthew's reaction. I mean, look at Lavinia! She's so obviously sweet and innocent and adorable and so forth. To Matthew, as I see it, the idea of uncovering deep dark secrets about her past is just rather hilarious and clearly some quirky plot of Violet's. He's not taking it seriously. I don't think you can read anything into that about what his reaction would be to an actual scandal breaking - and about Mary too. Would love to know what clunkhall thinks... (Being the Matthew expert! :P)
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Awwwww!!! Of course she would -- yes, that makes so much sense. :) I sort of love that idea, actually -- by helping Lavinia, she would've helped to atone for her own sins...aww.
I ain't writing that fanfic though...I've filled my Lavinia quota. ;)
You can see a lot of Violet in both Rosamund and Mary, and actually some Rosamund in Mary
Oh, interesting -- never thought of it that way!!! I have to say, considering this is a TV show and none of these actors are actually family, that's some pretty good writing and acting to communicate that. :D
To Matthew, as I see it, the idea of uncovering deep dark secrets about her past is just rather hilarious and clearly some quirky plot of Violet's. He's not taking it seriously.
That I disagree with -- maybe at dinner, but when he's talking to Mary (with Rosamund there), he's not joking. He looks worried...until Mary's all "LOL, whatever," and then he goes back into teasing mode. "Some horrid stain" isn't a serious line to Matthew (though it sort of should be to Mary).
Actually, I see "What a testimonial" as similar to Mary's "I think she's perfect" line. On its face, it's gentle teasing -- but with a real (maybe more obvious, since it's Matthew) undercurrent of sincerity: that he values Mary's opinion. Sigh...
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What a testimonial! :D
Ok, right. Matthew's lines and potential reaction to scandal. Right.
I think I'm going to take this line by line, bear with me..
1. "Dear me, I hope you haven't unearthed anything too fearful..!"
Now, what struck me re-watching this is... Who says anything about a scandal? A secret? A stain? WHO? All Violet says to precipitate this is "Well naturally, we're all curious to know more of Miss Swire if she's to reign over Downton as queen.."
Matthew immediately jumps from THAT to having "unearthed something fearful"? Where does that come from?
Maybe it's just in the way Violet says it. I don't know. But... Oh, gosh, I'm going to get confusing here. It's almost like... Ok, we reckon that M/L don't know each other ALL THAT WELL. Lavinia is Matthew's 'cure-all', his 'fix-it', his 'coping method' through the war. She's what he needs, and maybe he hasn't thought much about her beyond the fact that he 'needs' her. Maybe he has a subconscious fear that he DOESN'T know her, when Violet says it'd be good to get to know her better, maybe Matthew panics and suddenly thinks what if there IS something 'dark' about her that has totally passed him by due to the nature of their relationship?
Either way, it's interesting that THAT is his immediate reaction.
2. "What a relief. She was hinting she'd uncovered some.. horrid stain."
I think this ties a little back into the previous line. The idea that, really, Matthew has no idea. Lavinia, in his mind, is 'whiter than white', that's what she needs to be to him (I'll come back to this..), and the thought that she... ISN'T, freaks him out. It would shatter everything he's been building, the support that's getting him through the war. He NEEDS Lavinia to be 'perfect'.
Also, the fact that... IDK. He picks up on Violet's hints. Who does he go to? Mary. Yes, Violet said "you should ask Mary". But why? Why doesn't he go and ask Lavinia, "is there anything you're not telling me" - why doesn't he go to the woman he's supposed to love, trust, should believe above all others? Instead, he goes to hear what Mary has to say about her. Again, showing insecurity and doubt that his 'ideal' of Lavinia might be wrong.
Which leads me neatly onto...
3. "What a testimonial!"
To me, this isn't about what Mary's said, but the fact that it was Mary who said it. Ok, so this is probably obvious, but it really says a lot to me. Sure, Matthew want everyone to like Lavinia. But the fact that MARY says all she's 'unearthed' is that Lavinia is lovely - that really means something to Matthew. She has Mary's good opinion? Right. Fine. Sorted. Panic over.
4. How does this foreshadow Matthew's reaction to Pamuk?
Lots of things coming into play here that I've just referred to.
The strongest thing in my mind at the moment is this. Matthew's whole issue HERE, with Lavinia, is that OMG, she might not be the 'perfect' package he thought she was. (And I hope that's come across in the right way, as in it's an effect on the fact that Matthew NEEDS her to be 'perfect' to rely on). That's what freaks him out.
Mary... Matthew, correct me if I'm wrong, has NEVER believed Mary to be 'perfect'. Not in any way, shape or form. He knows she has flaws, Mary knows she has flaws, they both know that. He loved her anyway. He doesn't need Mary to be 'perfect', that isn't the point.
TBC...
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What does that mean in terms of Mary/scandal, then? That oh, he doesn't expect her to be perfect anyway, so why should he care? No, I don't think so. What I do think is that it will contribute to Matthew not judging her, and being able to move past it, because he doesn't have her on this unrealistic pedastal to begin with. He KNOWS her. (Which actually, also, just makes me appreciate even more Mary's "perfect" line. She knows they BOTH know she isn't, like a little in-joke... IDK).
Following from this is something that occurred to me last night whilst RP-ing Matthew not caring about Pamuk. The fact that... Pamuk happened a LONG time ago. Before Mary fell in love with him. The Mary that Matthew fell in love with, that loved him back, the Mary that Matthew laughed with and flirted with and kissed - that Mary was already tainted. I don't know, but I'd hope, that Matthew might recognise this and realise that she's the same person - it didn't make her any 'less' then, so why should it in his opinion now?
Another thing, obviously, that I think will come into play is the fact that she wanted to tell him, because she loved him, and that she HAS continued to love him ever since. Once he knows that - I think it'll put things in perspective for him. We all know how important love is to Matthew - he walked away from Mary only because he couldn't be SURE she loved him ENOUGH. It's his priority. So once he understands that - I'd like to think that it would override any judgement.
Of course, of COURSE Matthew will be hurt by it. Of course. Because it will appear as though the Mary he knew is 'stained'. It would taint everything. And it would hurt. We know he feels things deeply. But - for the reasons outlined above, I think he'll be able to get past that and understand that it doesn't mean he can't love her, or that she doesn't love him, and it needn't stop them being together.
Tbh, I've no idea if that answered any questions, created more, or WHAT! But hopefully it all made some sense!
:)
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I do think Matthew put Mary on a pedestal, at least at the beginning. I don't think he had ever seen anyone like her before. And his comment about living in a dream acknowledged that to a certain extent. But, as we were discussing, I think it is possible to marry that with not being taken in by Mary's character. He didn't think she was perfect, but he did, perhaps, have unrealistic expectations of her, based on his less practical view of the world (perhaps?).
So yeah, I'm agreeing with you - and I do think it's possible to feel the two things at the same time, but I think there was an aspect of pedestal putting with Mary. But it was a pedestal of intense admiration. I'm not sure that Matthew is necessarily looking up at Lavinia now, if that makes sense. He's not seeing the real girl necessarily, but he's looking sideways rather than up.
Gosh, that was a weird metaphor. :S
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