Re: Aside from the paradox...rustycoonNovember 4 2004, 14:37:28 UTC
I wasn't suggesting Bush is homophobic and racist, or that Kerry is some kind of paladin, or even actually distinguishable from Bush in most respects. I believe all of the above, but I'm not so stupid as to actually use that as an argument.
What I was trying to say is that those stereotypes of the candidates represented the apparent and visible choice the two candidates had. I pointed to the specific aspects of each that their supporters grabbed on to and touted to each other. Bush isn't racist, but you better believe most of our country is. (Even Dems.)
They didn't vote for Bush. They couldn't give two shits for Bush. They voted to hurt other people, it just so happens that Bush better developed his association with those returns.
I'm blaming the trend towards militant fascism on a nation under tremdous strain of poverty, vicious resentment from the rest of the international community, and a lack of ability to come to terms with a terrorist attack on our soil. (Decades of telling ourselves we were invinciible is going to make healing a slow process.)
You pointed out a lot of things that 'any educated, informed voter' would know, but you seem to misunderstand my previous point - voters are inherently uneducated, and not informed.
If you want evidence to support that, I'll happily provide, but it seems to me to be a common sense fact. Madison was wrong, self-interest to vote is not sufficient, or his definition of self-interest is not sufficient to account for the reality of human behavior.
Re: Aside from the paradox...maniakesNovember 4 2004, 14:56:10 UTC
I agree that far too many voters do not bother to inform themselves. I will go on to say that many people who make an effort to inform themselves end up with wildly inaccurate conclusions because they are unable to wade effectively through all the bullshit. I will also accept up to a point (but only up to a point) the MIB quote crimson_soul mentioned in another post: "A person is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicy animals and you know it."
That being said, I'm a lot less cynical about the average American than you are. Not idealistic, just less cynical.
You mention that what you said was the stereotypes of the candidates. Remember that we are both members of a deep blue subculture and we both live in a deep blue state. The prevailing stereotypes of the candidates we are exposed to in our daily lives are likely very, very different from the prevailing stereotypes held by people who are members of other subcultures who live is different parts of the country.
Re: Aside from the paradox...rustycoonNovember 4 2004, 15:18:48 UTC
You make a good point about regional availability of propoganda. The internet being just another quasi-geographic region for purposes of demographical concerns in this regard, I would wager.
When I visit my folks in South Carolina I will ask them what the stereotypes looked like, and try to put that into context of their racial/religious tolerance as well.
Re: Aside from the paradox...maniakesNovember 4 2004, 15:35:10 UTC
When you do find out, please post your findings. I'll be interested in reading.
With the internet, I'd go a bit further and say it contains a lot of self-selected ideological clusters which make the quasi-geographic propoganda splits even bigger.
What I was trying to say is that those stereotypes of the candidates represented the apparent and visible choice the two candidates had. I pointed to the specific aspects of each that their supporters grabbed on to and touted to each other. Bush isn't racist, but you better believe most of our country is. (Even Dems.)
They didn't vote for Bush. They couldn't give two shits for Bush. They voted to hurt other people, it just so happens that Bush better developed his association with those returns.
I'm blaming the trend towards militant fascism on a nation under tremdous strain of poverty, vicious resentment from the rest of the international community, and a lack of ability to come to terms with a terrorist attack on our soil. (Decades of telling ourselves we were invinciible is going to make healing a slow process.)
You pointed out a lot of things that 'any educated, informed voter' would know, but you seem to misunderstand my previous point - voters are inherently uneducated, and not informed.
If you want evidence to support that, I'll happily provide, but it seems to me to be a common sense fact. Madison was wrong, self-interest to vote is not sufficient, or his definition of self-interest is not sufficient to account for the reality of human behavior.
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And the statement should have read 'Even if Bush isn't racist...'
It feels like it should be 10:30PM, and bedtime, but it's only 3. Bad sign.
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That being said, I'm a lot less cynical about the average American than you are. Not idealistic, just less cynical.
You mention that what you said was the stereotypes of the candidates. Remember that we are both members of a deep blue subculture and we both live in a deep blue state. The prevailing stereotypes of the candidates we are exposed to in our daily lives are likely very, very different from the prevailing stereotypes held by people who are members of other subcultures who live is different parts of the country.
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When I visit my folks in South Carolina I will ask them what the stereotypes looked like, and try to put that into context of their racial/religious tolerance as well.
Be interesting to see what that turns up.
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With the internet, I'd go a bit further and say it contains a lot of self-selected ideological clusters which make the quasi-geographic propoganda splits even bigger.
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