(no subject)
ok its time for the Emmie tangent I posted this to a the christianwomen community. I got some interesting responses. I hope they dont ban me for trolling in an attempt to get folks to think.
Several weeks ago I posted summeries of the sermons from my chruch. We are in a series on women, God's purpose for us, and how He brings about change. I have contemplated posting those summeries to other christian communities but I fear Id be accused of trolling or being some radical feminist because there would be men who would deffinately disagree. (No dobut some of you ladies wont agree but I imagine at least you all wont call me a radical out of control feminist :-)) Anyway, the previous messages were on the concepts and beliefs about women that have been handed down through greek, roman, and even hebrew culture and has become intertwined in our own.
Sundays was what I had been waiting to hear. He spoke about an hour and, as I expected had a 30 minute Q & A session. (This particular man in our church didnt dissappoint me! We had our own discussion that ended up with some hurt feelings on both sides so it was refresing for me to hear from Brother Tim.) It was from I Timothy 2:9-15 or more specifically 11-15. In the letter Paul addresses Timothy specifically, the church as a whole, men specifically, and women specifically as in verses 9 and 10 "likewise I want the women...(The plural) In verse 11 Paul addresses a woman the singular. when he says she should sit under quiet instruction submissivily and not teach." I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man..." Here was ONE woman under church dicipline for teaching false doctrines and that is specifically why she was pointed out. Paul had already predicited in Ephisians that there would be wolves that would attack the body from inside.
The verses on creation about Eve falling first verses 13 and 14 have been used as a way of sayig women are easily decieved and shouldnt be teaching. It has been made to sound condesenidng to women and uplifting the men. However, in a lot of ways it could be seen as the opposite. Adam had direct instructions from God and he still ate. There is no mention of God telling Eve not to eat. She stated to the serpent they were not even to touch it. God never said that. so here is more likely Adam not doing his job and allowing her to be decieved. after all he was WITH her.
He also got into Chapter 3 about decons and overseers. The arguement that it can only be men because the statement of being the husband of one wife. In greek there was no true word for husband and wife. It was man of one woman, or even woman of one man. Any could serve as long as they were in a monogamous relationship.
After the sermon the questions were brought up about hierarchy. He pointed out again that at the cross all are equal. We sometimes have a hard time grasping unity because of "chain of command" in everyday life. There is none greater. If such a thing exists it is apostles, prophets, pastors/teachers. And in Joel 2, i believe it is says, and your sons and DAUGHTERS will prophecy. So if women could be prophets why not pastors. There was also the arguement that if women had such authority they would be great becaus they could also bear children. (back to the passage of a woman being justified through "bearing the child" which in greek is actually a noun. The Child bearing. in other words Jesus Himself. so again we are level. another arguement was that women are easily decieved and are too emotional to lead. WEll, did Jesus not cry? Does God not get angry? so why is being emotional bad? as far as deception goes, we know that the Antichrist will be a man. The leaders of the famous cults were men. Jim Jones, David Ceresh jsut to name a few so there goes that arguement.
It will be intersting to hear the response of some other men in the free will baptist mission office explain how the belief/doctrine doesnt contridict Joel 2. Because of course the bible doesnt contridict itself. The arguement that its ok for women to teach children or other women would contridict I Timothy 2 11 if it all was to be interpereted that way.
well that explains much of why I personally find myself lately being drawn to the charasmatic or pentacostal churches and away from conservative fundamentalist non-charasmatic denominations.
Why do people like thier bondage? Is it simply because its comfortable for them? Is it that frightning to think outside the box? Are they afraid of what other PEOPLE will think? No revolutionary idea ever started out great. Few revolutionaries were thought of as great during their time. It was only after thinking through the ideas sometimes over centruies did it become great. Its not just the men and women issue either. As long as i can remember I was troubled with the fact that there is a wall between First Baptist Church and Greater Shilo Baptist Church. A wall that reperesents walls built in the hearts of the members of those churches. Those that say black and white believers cant worship together. I want to see it come down. I could see myself on it like those on lthe berlin wall. But then that wont happen until there is a change of heart. The predjuices that the older generation wants to hold to like Linus and his blanket.
That need to feel superior to others. The feeling that its ok just to sit around quietly with folded hands on sunday mornings and not think they can do anything to affect social change. That "good" christians dont make noise! humph! even minorities get heard if they make enough noise. I mean did the July 4th services do nothing for them?
My "dear" cousin Andy who wouldnt even let his faimily go to church on baptist womens day because the women were going to lead the service and they had asked his wife to speak. not PREACH but speak. Silly I know. He sits in a class with people up to 10 15 years older than them and therefore little in common with them because He wont sit in a class with a woman teacher! [This is the same man that told his daughters they couldnt go to thier grandparents free will baptist church because they (free will baptists)dont believe like he (southern baptist) does. And had them confused and crying.] There is no passage that reads women cant preach. They come up with beliefs that clearly contridict the scriptures and even have scriptures contridict themselves. Why? because its different. They want to hold to a suppority complex? Yes sadly we like our divisions. WE speak unity but does anyone really understand that concept?
Its like being set free and choosing to sit in your chains. It makes no sense. I mean I dont fit into any one box. How do they expect God will?
More to come no doubt. I must eat before work though.
for the original post and responses in the community go to : http://www.livejournal.com/community/christianwomen/410707.html
Several weeks ago I posted summeries of the sermons from my chruch. We are in a series on women, God's purpose for us, and how He brings about change. I have contemplated posting those summeries to other christian communities but I fear Id be accused of trolling or being some radical feminist because there would be men who would deffinately disagree. (No dobut some of you ladies wont agree but I imagine at least you all wont call me a radical out of control feminist :-)) Anyway, the previous messages were on the concepts and beliefs about women that have been handed down through greek, roman, and even hebrew culture and has become intertwined in our own.
Sundays was what I had been waiting to hear. He spoke about an hour and, as I expected had a 30 minute Q & A session. (This particular man in our church didnt dissappoint me! We had our own discussion that ended up with some hurt feelings on both sides so it was refresing for me to hear from Brother Tim.) It was from I Timothy 2:9-15 or more specifically 11-15. In the letter Paul addresses Timothy specifically, the church as a whole, men specifically, and women specifically as in verses 9 and 10 "likewise I want the women...(The plural) In verse 11 Paul addresses a woman the singular. when he says she should sit under quiet instruction submissivily and not teach." I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man..." Here was ONE woman under church dicipline for teaching false doctrines and that is specifically why she was pointed out. Paul had already predicited in Ephisians that there would be wolves that would attack the body from inside.
The verses on creation about Eve falling first verses 13 and 14 have been used as a way of sayig women are easily decieved and shouldnt be teaching. It has been made to sound condesenidng to women and uplifting the men. However, in a lot of ways it could be seen as the opposite. Adam had direct instructions from God and he still ate. There is no mention of God telling Eve not to eat. She stated to the serpent they were not even to touch it. God never said that. so here is more likely Adam not doing his job and allowing her to be decieved. after all he was WITH her.
He also got into Chapter 3 about decons and overseers. The arguement that it can only be men because the statement of being the husband of one wife. In greek there was no true word for husband and wife. It was man of one woman, or even woman of one man. Any could serve as long as they were in a monogamous relationship.
After the sermon the questions were brought up about hierarchy. He pointed out again that at the cross all are equal. We sometimes have a hard time grasping unity because of "chain of command" in everyday life. There is none greater. If such a thing exists it is apostles, prophets, pastors/teachers. And in Joel 2, i believe it is says, and your sons and DAUGHTERS will prophecy. So if women could be prophets why not pastors. There was also the arguement that if women had such authority they would be great becaus they could also bear children. (back to the passage of a woman being justified through "bearing the child" which in greek is actually a noun. The Child bearing. in other words Jesus Himself. so again we are level. another arguement was that women are easily decieved and are too emotional to lead. WEll, did Jesus not cry? Does God not get angry? so why is being emotional bad? as far as deception goes, we know that the Antichrist will be a man. The leaders of the famous cults were men. Jim Jones, David Ceresh jsut to name a few so there goes that arguement.
It will be intersting to hear the response of some other men in the free will baptist mission office explain how the belief/doctrine doesnt contridict Joel 2. Because of course the bible doesnt contridict itself. The arguement that its ok for women to teach children or other women would contridict I Timothy 2 11 if it all was to be interpereted that way.
well that explains much of why I personally find myself lately being drawn to the charasmatic or pentacostal churches and away from conservative fundamentalist non-charasmatic denominations.
Why do people like thier bondage? Is it simply because its comfortable for them? Is it that frightning to think outside the box? Are they afraid of what other PEOPLE will think? No revolutionary idea ever started out great. Few revolutionaries were thought of as great during their time. It was only after thinking through the ideas sometimes over centruies did it become great. Its not just the men and women issue either. As long as i can remember I was troubled with the fact that there is a wall between First Baptist Church and Greater Shilo Baptist Church. A wall that reperesents walls built in the hearts of the members of those churches. Those that say black and white believers cant worship together. I want to see it come down. I could see myself on it like those on lthe berlin wall. But then that wont happen until there is a change of heart. The predjuices that the older generation wants to hold to like Linus and his blanket.
That need to feel superior to others. The feeling that its ok just to sit around quietly with folded hands on sunday mornings and not think they can do anything to affect social change. That "good" christians dont make noise! humph! even minorities get heard if they make enough noise. I mean did the July 4th services do nothing for them?
My "dear" cousin Andy who wouldnt even let his faimily go to church on baptist womens day because the women were going to lead the service and they had asked his wife to speak. not PREACH but speak. Silly I know. He sits in a class with people up to 10 15 years older than them and therefore little in common with them because He wont sit in a class with a woman teacher! [This is the same man that told his daughters they couldnt go to thier grandparents free will baptist church because they (free will baptists)dont believe like he (southern baptist) does. And had them confused and crying.] There is no passage that reads women cant preach. They come up with beliefs that clearly contridict the scriptures and even have scriptures contridict themselves. Why? because its different. They want to hold to a suppority complex? Yes sadly we like our divisions. WE speak unity but does anyone really understand that concept?
Its like being set free and choosing to sit in your chains. It makes no sense. I mean I dont fit into any one box. How do they expect God will?
More to come no doubt. I must eat before work though.
for the original post and responses in the community go to : http://www.livejournal.com/community/christianwomen/410707.html