Yes, I know about that study, and there have certainly been a number of conflicting results found by various researchers over the years.
Personally, I don't think there is anything there to pray to either. Perhaps, as Stan said, my prayers only bounced off the ceiling. At the same time, however, I get the impression that Chris was grateful for them notwithstanding my status as an unbeliever - and if the gesture made Chris happy while he was recovering, then the effort (which, after all, was rather trivial - ten seconds of directed thinking time) was worthwhile in my opinion.
My feeling is that religious people pray way too much as a strategy for dealing with problems, and that it gets to the point that it blinds them to what is actually going on in the world. I look at the responses to Chris's status updates, and they are full of comments like "Praise God" - but never a word about all the people who did all the work to actually develop and perform the operation. It is as if those people were completely unimportant to the event and its outcome. And yet I would wager that most of these people would be rightfully horrified at the actions of those Oregon Pentecostals who let their children die rather than take them to a hospital.
I suspect that in part this is a holdover from an earlier era when the idea of original sin and man as a fallen and inherently debased creature was more widespread than it is in religious thought today. Religion needs to begin taking a more positive view of human beings.
monasticismext_407657January 28 2011, 17:19:42 UTC
from a faith perspective
perhaps people of faith are guilty of praying far too much and acting far too little.
I've spent time at a monastery on retreat and part of the sense (no science) is that somehow their prayers are holding this world together if that makes sense - that faithful prayer does make a difference (and no, I do not want to unpack the theology behind that)
now there is a new monasticism - people who do not retreat from the world but enter into the places forgotten by society (urban poor) to set up communities of shalom and healing (Shane Claiborn is the poster boy). They pray AND act. And this models the Christian's founder who prayed to get in tune with His Father's will.
And this reminds me that prayer (from a faith perspective) is a dialog and not a monologue.
Ed, when I mentioned prayer bouncing off the ceiling I didn't mean that your prayers are not worthy of being heard by God, but that perhaps from your perspective that your prayer had a "return to sender" stamp on it as it came from your mouth - a faith belief issue. Does this make sense?
But I do disagree that prayer causes one to feel morally superior to others. Maybe there has been that from some, but personally, prayer humbles me. If there is an infinite God, there's very little difference between any of us finite beings. Grace leaves no room for pride.
I value this dialog - we need to listen to one another and not pre-suppose. I'm learning. Thanks.
Re: monasticismem_gumbyFebruary 1 2011, 01:52:20 UTC
Stan,
thanks for the response.
I'm all in favor of the new monasticism - the faithful get to pray and those in need get assistance. Sounds like a win/win.
I'm not entirely convinced that prayer is a dialogue. A dialogue requires an exchange of ideas with the goal of reaching an agreement amicable to both participants. Since God's position in any dialogue is always the correct one, wouldn't it be more like a lecture? Humanity may be able to ask questions of God, directly or indirectly, but in the end it is God's position which holds sway and it will not have been modified or changed - the best result that can be hoped for is that we humans come to a better and clearer understanding of what that position is. That may be a conversation, but it isn't a dialogue.
As for my prayer bouncing off the ceiling, I reject the idea. My justification being that if God is God, then He knows that I don't believe in Him - but He also knows that my desire for Chris to benefit and get well is heartfelt and independent of my lack of belief. And because God is God, he is benevolent. Such a being would not deny benefit to an innocent (Chris) simply because of an issue between myself and Him - that would be needlessly petty and cruel. It would make sense for God to deny my requests for personal aid - but why deny my requests for aid to people who are innocent and deserving simply because of my error in judgment (or willful petulance, or whatever the cause might be)? If God is God then He is bigger than that - He can hear me despite my unbelief, and He would not withhold aid from Chris because of my sins. Any God who would do such a thing is no God at all.
As for whether prayer invokes feelings of moral superiority, it is certainly very common for those who pray to feel very humble when conversing with the almighty (I get the same feeling when I meditate by the ocean or look at the sky). But you need to talk to more atheists to get their reaction to how Christians come off all too often. I believe that we need look no further in Christian doctrine than the widely held belief that those who accept Jesus as lord will go to heaven while those who do not will suffer torments eternally gives a strong indication of the view that many Christians take on the matter.
Well said, I concur. The only thing I would say is that the conflicting studies have generally been found to not be very well done so they don't hold the same weight as the one study that was done better, although still not double blinded.
Sorry for not getting back to this sooner. My only defense is that it was a double XP weekend on City of Heroes - and that's pretty feeble as excuses go.
I tried looking up the study I was referring to in my copy of Martin Seligman's "Learned Optimism" but thus-far have not been able to find a direct reference (I know it is in there SOMEWHERE). The interesting thing about the study was that it was not a study of prayer per se, but a study of the effects of belief. The indication was that if you believed that there were people praying for you, you had better and quicker recovery - whether there was actually anyone praying for you or not.
Yes, I know about that study, and there have certainly been a number of conflicting results found by various researchers over the years.
Personally, I don't think there is anything there to pray to either. Perhaps, as Stan said, my prayers only bounced off the ceiling. At the same time, however, I get the impression that Chris was grateful for them notwithstanding my status as an unbeliever - and if the gesture made Chris happy while he was recovering, then the effort (which, after all, was rather trivial - ten seconds of directed thinking time) was worthwhile in my opinion.
My feeling is that religious people pray way too much as a strategy for dealing with problems, and that it gets to the point that it blinds them to what is actually going on in the world. I look at the responses to Chris's status updates, and they are full of comments like "Praise God" - but never a word about all the people who did all the work to actually develop and perform the operation. It is as if those people were completely unimportant to the event and its outcome. And yet I would wager that most of these people would be rightfully horrified at the actions of those Oregon Pentecostals who let their children die rather than take them to a hospital.
I suspect that in part this is a holdover from an earlier era when the idea of original sin and man as a fallen and inherently debased creature was more widespread than it is in religious thought today. Religion needs to begin taking a more positive view of human beings.
Anyway - thanks for writing!
Reply
perhaps people of faith are guilty of praying far too much and acting far too little.
I've spent time at a monastery on retreat and part of the sense (no science) is that somehow their prayers are holding this world together if that makes sense - that faithful prayer does make a difference (and no, I do not want to unpack the theology behind that)
now there is a new monasticism - people who do not retreat from the world but enter into the places forgotten by society (urban poor) to set up communities of shalom and healing (Shane Claiborn is the poster boy). They pray AND act. And this models the Christian's founder who prayed to get in tune with His Father's will.
And this reminds me that prayer (from a faith perspective) is a dialog and not a monologue.
Ed, when I mentioned prayer bouncing off the ceiling I didn't mean that your prayers are not worthy of being heard by God, but that perhaps from your perspective that your prayer had a "return to sender" stamp on it as it came from your mouth - a faith belief issue. Does this make sense?
But I do disagree that prayer causes one to feel morally superior to others. Maybe there has been that from some, but personally, prayer humbles me. If there is an infinite God, there's very little difference between any of us finite beings. Grace leaves no room for pride.
I value this dialog - we need to listen to one another and not pre-suppose. I'm learning. Thanks.
Reply
thanks for the response.
I'm all in favor of the new monasticism - the faithful get to pray and those in need get assistance. Sounds like a win/win.
I'm not entirely convinced that prayer is a dialogue. A dialogue requires an exchange of ideas with the goal of reaching an agreement amicable to both participants. Since God's position in any dialogue is always the correct one, wouldn't it be more like a lecture? Humanity may be able to ask questions of God, directly or indirectly, but in the end it is God's position which holds sway and it will not have been modified or changed - the best result that can be hoped for is that we humans come to a better and clearer understanding of what that position is. That may be a conversation, but it isn't a dialogue.
As for my prayer bouncing off the ceiling, I reject the idea. My justification being that if God is God, then He knows that I don't believe in Him - but He also knows that my desire for Chris to benefit and get well is heartfelt and independent of my lack of belief. And because God is God, he is benevolent. Such a being would not deny benefit to an innocent (Chris) simply because of an issue between myself and Him - that would be needlessly petty and cruel. It would make sense for God to deny my requests for personal aid - but why deny my requests for aid to people who are innocent and deserving simply because of my error in judgment (or willful petulance, or whatever the cause might be)? If God is God then He is bigger than that - He can hear me despite my unbelief, and He would not withhold aid from Chris because of my sins. Any God who would do such a thing is no God at all.
As for whether prayer invokes feelings of moral superiority, it is certainly very common for those who pray to feel very humble when conversing with the almighty (I get the same feeling when I meditate by the ocean or look at the sky). But you need to talk to more atheists to get their reaction to how Christians come off all too often. I believe that we need look no further in Christian doctrine than the widely held belief that those who accept Jesus as lord will go to heaven while those who do not will suffer torments eternally gives a strong indication of the view that many Christians take on the matter.
Reply
The only thing I would say is that the conflicting studies have generally been found to not be very well done so they don't hold the same weight as the one study that was done better, although still not double blinded.
Reply
I tried looking up the study I was referring to in my copy of Martin Seligman's "Learned Optimism" but thus-far have not been able to find a direct reference (I know it is in there SOMEWHERE). The interesting thing about the study was that it was not a study of prayer per se, but a study of the effects of belief. The indication was that if you believed that there were people praying for you, you had better and quicker recovery - whether there was actually anyone praying for you or not.
Reply
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