I'm strangely flattered + ANH 4/??
My rant about incomes in P&P actually cropped up in a DWG discussion. The version posted at dreamwidth, of all places -- I haven't, ah, noticed many from the Austen contingent over [t]here. Apparently I have lurkers or something? I don't know, but they were very nice about it (and not in a Cult of Nice way, just normal-nice).
*bemused*
The discussion in question, incidentally, is one of the 'could Darcy get a special license' ones that comes up every once in a while. It all springs from Mrs Bennet's assumption that Darcy and Elizabeth will be married by special license (an assumption she does not make for Jane and Bingley), even though peers, children of peers, and MPs are the only ones who could apply for SLs. Generally, the debate results in many convoluted justifications on both sides, generally devolving into different arguments altogether.
Personally, I think the easiest explanation would be that Darcy is an MP, like Sir Thomas after him, and therefore automatically eligible. But that's just me. (Literally just me. In at least a dozen iterations of this debate, I've never once heard another person suggest it.)
Back to Star Wars, I got through the second half of Obi-Wan's expositioniad. (Next stop, the Death Star.) Warning for TV Tropes and massive fanwanking.
-- LUKE: The Force?
OBI-WAN: The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.
His power? It could just be typical male-as-the-default speech patterns, but it's equally possible that, back in the day, the Jedi were all males. That might make Leia's marginalisation in ROTJ slightly less frustrating (Luke's powers mean he should be trained as a Jedi; Leia's powers mean she'll have to be trained if Luke fails). Post-ROTJ!Luke and Leia would be happily mastering their powers and rebuilding the Order and completely oblivious to the old-school Jedi pulling their glowy blue hair out. (Anakin could tell Luke, I suppose, but I suspect he's pretty much 'lol pwned' so he, ah, declines, while Obi-Wan and Yoda are just zen about the whole thing.)
Also, old school Force! *squee*
The Force, incidentally, sounds more like a, well, force of nature than a deity, despite being treated as such by the characters (it’s even the subject of an interstellar religion!). I’m wondering what its relationship with droids is; they can obviously be influenced by Force powers (telekinesis!), but perhaps are not bound into the Force itself.
Also, the emphasis is on the mystical, reciprocal relationship between the Force and living things. In some way it gives power to Jedi specifically, but we’re not told how or why they get it. Is it innate? An acquired skill? We don’t know!
In fact, at this point it may be credible for anyone to be a Jedi, given the appropriate training; the Force is with everybody, after all. We don’t even know if any one Jedi can be ‘given’ different powers than another, or stronger ones, or ... you know, whatever.
I’m pretty sure at least some of this gets clarified later in ANH; when Luke uses the Force at the end of ANH, Vader famously observes that the Force is strong with him, indicating that while, yes, it’s with everybody, it’s with some people a lot more than others.
(Also, the fact that Obi-Wan spent upwards of fifteen years on Tatooine waiting for Luke implies that whatever it is that made the Force cluster around him is both innate and exceptionally rare. When you think about it, he presumably would have picked up some kids from an orphanage or something if he could have, and trained a whole new generation of Jedi while Luke Skywalker grew up -- even if Luke was the only person with the mad power levels required to take on the Emperor, he certainly could have used the backup. But it doesn’t seem that was an option.)
-- OBI-WAN [to R2-D2]: Now let’s see if we can’t figure out what you are, my little friend, and where you come from.
He really doesn’t seem to know. *confused*
-- LEIA: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.
*cough* Oh?
Going back to ignoring-the-prequels happy lala-land, this is ... hm, interesting. Obi-Wan earlier replied to Luke’s question about fighting in the Clone Wars by saying, “Yes. I was a Jedi Knight, the same as your father.” The indication is clearly that Obi-Wan fought in his capacity as a Jedi Knight; in fact, that he fought because he was one. Guarding peace and justice through war!
Now it seems that he was actually a general: specifically, a general in the service of an Alderaanian royal (the king or prince-consort, presumably). This isn’t incompatible with fighting as a Jedi, of course, but it’s a little odd. For her part, Leia never identifies him as a Jedi, and in fact never shows any awareness that he was one. (Does she even know what they are?)
This works fine with my Jedi-as-good!Sith theory, though. Obi-Wan could have been a military officer in his own right, legitimately offered his services to Leia’s father -- while furthering the Jedi agenda, which during the Clone Wars seems to have been . . . fighting in the Clone Wars. (For great justice, obviously.)
Twenty years later, Organa’s trust in Obi-Wan remains absolute, and Obi-Wan immediately comes out of hiding to fulfill the request. *curious*
Incidental note: Leia’s father definitely seems to be the one in power; the request comes from him, Obi-Wan served him back in the Clone Wars. There isn’t even a mention of her mother (like Luke, which is ... yeah). Official canon states that her mother was actually the ruler, and of course there are a billion ways you could fanwank it, but at this point every indication is that Leia’s position derives from him.
-- LEIA: Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire.
I get the feeling that the Life and Times of Whathisname Organa would make a fascinating story. Maybe he saved Obi-Wan’s life or something.
-- LEIA: I regret that I’m unable to present my father’s request to you in person. My ship is under attack and I’m afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed.
So that’s why she was there. (She definitely knew where he was living -- exactly where, apparently -- which I’m guessing she knows from her father, Obi-Wan’s BFF.) I have to say, the idea of Leia making her way through the Jundland Wastes is positively lulzy.
Also: her tone is very ‘I have to go be tortured now kthxbai.’ Leia is hardcore.
-- LEIA: I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan.
So Leia couldn’t find any undercover Rebellion members to take it for her? She had to go to Tatooine and get Obi-Wan to take it for her? She must have known she’d be attacked and captured at some point, otherwise she could just take it herself, but ... did she just happen to be in the area or what?
Okay, I’m going to assume that her father is begging Obi-Wan to help him in his general struggle w/ the Empire and the courier service is more of a ‘while I’m here, please take this to Daddy OMG HELP.’
-- LEIA: *gestures* This is our most desperate hour.
I’m guessing her Force powers (which obviously don’t exist at the moment, but whatever) don’t give her foresight. ‘Cause I can think of a few worse ones she’ll face (like the end of the next movie).
-- LEIA: Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope.
*sniffle*
-- OBI-WAN: ... *rubs beard*
LUKE: ... *looks curious*
OBI-WAN: ... *looks thoughtful*
LUKE: ... *looks quizzical*
I now understand what Lucas was talking about when he said SW was inspired by silent movies.
-- OBI-WAN: *meaningful smile* You must learn the ways of the Force if you are to come with me to Alderaan.
Why? I mean, I can see why he wants to go to Alderaan, and I can see why he doesn’t want Luke out of his sight, and I can see why he wants Luke to learn the ways of the Force. I don’t see what any of these things have to do with each other.
-- LUKE: *wistful look* Alderaan?! *laughs* I’m not going to Alderaan! I’ve got to get home. It’s late, I’m in for it as it is.
OBI-WAN: I need your help, Luke. *pauses* She needs your help.
If I’ve got the official canon right, Obi-Wan (1) kidnapped Luke and his twin sister, (2) separated Luke from her, (3) lied to him about his father’s identity and disappearance, (4) sees Luke’s obvious crush, (5) tries to convince him to join an illegal secret society, and (5) when he refuses, uses Luke’s crush ON HIS SISTER (which is only possible because of the situation Obi-Wan himself has created), to manipulate him further.
...
>_<
Happy lala land! Obi-Wan does not in fact know Luke has a sister (otherwise his ‘???’ in ESB makes ... very little sense). But he’s certain that Jedi!Luke is the only person who can bring down the Emperor, and therefore teaching him to be one is only about the most important thing ever. So he’ll push that as hard as he ethically can. Emphasis on ethically.
-- OBI-WAN: I’m getting too old for this sort of thing.
How old is ANH!Obi-Wan, anyway? I think we can assume it’s a bit more than fifty. He’s always struck me as really old (like, a hundred and fifty or something), though I could budge a ways on that.
(It never occurred to me that he could be younger than he looks. I mean, in the last section he pretty strongly implied that he was 'old Obi-Wan' when he led Anakin off, so -- yeah.)
-- LUKE: *hesitates* *looks longingly at ... something* *grimaces* I can’t get involved! I’ve got work to do! It’s not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do right now!
Soooo ... Luke actively hates the Empire, but he still wants to join the Imperial Academy.
He must really hate Tatooine.
Also: this is the point at which I really started to like Luke. He desperately wants to leave, he’s trying to alter the deal with his uncle, he’s got a hero complex a mile wide, he wants to rescue the damsel in distress, and he’s just been given the opportunity to accomplish all of this AND become a Magic Knight like the heroic, glamourous father he idolises AND fight the tyrannical regime he loathes.
And he sticks by his duty, because even though he hates it, it’s his duty. Forget bangs and flashes and general skullcrushing and asskicking -- this is the stuff that heroes are made out of.
-- LUKE: And ... *sigh* it’s all such a long way from here.
OBI-WAN: That’s your uncle talking.
Ooh, some Lars characterisation. Even given that it’s Obi-Wan, the ultimate in unreliable narrators, it’s something -- at the very least, Obi-Wan sees Owen as the man who’s so focused on his life and his problems that he can’t see the big picture. (While he suggests Luke is parroting Owen’s worldview here, he seems pretty well convinced that Luke doesn’t actually share it. But then, he’s right, and he may be in a position to know it.)
Also, the characters talk with these odd, frequent emphases every few words. Kind of like comic books.
LUKE: *exhales* My uncle -- how am I ever going to explain this?
OBI-WAN: Learn about the Force, Luke.
LUKE: *hesitates* *takes the lightsabre* Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you’re going.
OBI-WAN: *looks away* You must do what you feel is right ... of course.
Of course. He wouldn’t dream of guilt tripping a teenage boy into rescuing a princess, converting to a religion with perks in the forms of superpowers and downsides in the form of treason, and abandoning his family. NEVER!
---------------------
(1) Obi-Wan refers to single Jedi in the masculine ('his'). This may or may not be meaningful.
(2) The Force (i) is generated by life, (ii) binds everything together, and (iii) grants certain powers to Jedi. As far as the latter's concerned, we don't know why -- just that it's rare and kind of arbitrary. Everybody, from young!Anakin to Obi-Wan to Owen, correctly assumes that Luke will inherit his father's sensitivity to the Force, so there seems to be a genetic component of some kind.
(3) During the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was a general in the service of the Alderaanian royal family (was he Alderaanian?), and it's by this identity that he's remembered. It's not clear whether it was even known that he was a Jedi.
(4) Obi-Wan immediately prepares to leave when his old ... employer's? ... request reaches him. Organa didn't fear that Obi-Wan had changed sides in the last 15-20 years. Their mutual trust appears to be absolute.
(5) Leia begs Obi-Wan to take the droid to her father, but presumably this is not the assistance Organa was originally asking for when he sent her to beg Obi-Wan's assistance in the war effort.
(6) Obi-Wan thinks Owen is pretty much sticking his head in the proverbial (and, heh, literal) sand, and trying to convince Luke to do the same. He also seems very confident that he'll have failed -- either because genetics are all-powerful in the GFFA, or simply because he knows Luke well enough to see that it's obviously not the case.
(7) Obi-Wan is a manipulative bastard.
*bemused*
The discussion in question, incidentally, is one of the 'could Darcy get a special license' ones that comes up every once in a while. It all springs from Mrs Bennet's assumption that Darcy and Elizabeth will be married by special license (an assumption she does not make for Jane and Bingley), even though peers, children of peers, and MPs are the only ones who could apply for SLs. Generally, the debate results in many convoluted justifications on both sides, generally devolving into different arguments altogether.
Personally, I think the easiest explanation would be that Darcy is an MP, like Sir Thomas after him, and therefore automatically eligible. But that's just me. (Literally just me. In at least a dozen iterations of this debate, I've never once heard another person suggest it.)
Back to Star Wars, I got through the second half of Obi-Wan's expositioniad. (Next stop, the Death Star.) Warning for TV Tropes and massive fanwanking.
-- LUKE: The Force?
OBI-WAN: The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.
His power? It could just be typical male-as-the-default speech patterns, but it's equally possible that, back in the day, the Jedi were all males. That might make Leia's marginalisation in ROTJ slightly less frustrating (Luke's powers mean he should be trained as a Jedi; Leia's powers mean she'll have to be trained if Luke fails). Post-ROTJ!Luke and Leia would be happily mastering their powers and rebuilding the Order and completely oblivious to the old-school Jedi pulling their glowy blue hair out. (Anakin could tell Luke, I suppose, but I suspect he's pretty much 'lol pwned' so he, ah, declines, while Obi-Wan and Yoda are just zen about the whole thing.)
Also, old school Force! *squee*
The Force, incidentally, sounds more like a, well, force of nature than a deity, despite being treated as such by the characters (it’s even the subject of an interstellar religion!). I’m wondering what its relationship with droids is; they can obviously be influenced by Force powers (telekinesis!), but perhaps are not bound into the Force itself.
Also, the emphasis is on the mystical, reciprocal relationship between the Force and living things. In some way it gives power to Jedi specifically, but we’re not told how or why they get it. Is it innate? An acquired skill? We don’t know!
In fact, at this point it may be credible for anyone to be a Jedi, given the appropriate training; the Force is with everybody, after all. We don’t even know if any one Jedi can be ‘given’ different powers than another, or stronger ones, or ... you know, whatever.
I’m pretty sure at least some of this gets clarified later in ANH; when Luke uses the Force at the end of ANH, Vader famously observes that the Force is strong with him, indicating that while, yes, it’s with everybody, it’s with some people a lot more than others.
(Also, the fact that Obi-Wan spent upwards of fifteen years on Tatooine waiting for Luke implies that whatever it is that made the Force cluster around him is both innate and exceptionally rare. When you think about it, he presumably would have picked up some kids from an orphanage or something if he could have, and trained a whole new generation of Jedi while Luke Skywalker grew up -- even if Luke was the only person with the mad power levels required to take on the Emperor, he certainly could have used the backup. But it doesn’t seem that was an option.)
-- OBI-WAN [to R2-D2]: Now let’s see if we can’t figure out what you are, my little friend, and where you come from.
He really doesn’t seem to know. *confused*
-- LEIA: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.
*cough* Oh?
Going back to ignoring-the-prequels happy lala-land, this is ... hm, interesting. Obi-Wan earlier replied to Luke’s question about fighting in the Clone Wars by saying, “Yes. I was a Jedi Knight, the same as your father.” The indication is clearly that Obi-Wan fought in his capacity as a Jedi Knight; in fact, that he fought because he was one. Guarding peace and justice through war!
Now it seems that he was actually a general: specifically, a general in the service of an Alderaanian royal (the king or prince-consort, presumably). This isn’t incompatible with fighting as a Jedi, of course, but it’s a little odd. For her part, Leia never identifies him as a Jedi, and in fact never shows any awareness that he was one. (Does she even know what they are?)
This works fine with my Jedi-as-good!Sith theory, though. Obi-Wan could have been a military officer in his own right, legitimately offered his services to Leia’s father -- while furthering the Jedi agenda, which during the Clone Wars seems to have been . . . fighting in the Clone Wars. (For great justice, obviously.)
Twenty years later, Organa’s trust in Obi-Wan remains absolute, and Obi-Wan immediately comes out of hiding to fulfill the request. *curious*
Incidental note: Leia’s father definitely seems to be the one in power; the request comes from him, Obi-Wan served him back in the Clone Wars. There isn’t even a mention of her mother (like Luke, which is ... yeah). Official canon states that her mother was actually the ruler, and of course there are a billion ways you could fanwank it, but at this point every indication is that Leia’s position derives from him.
-- LEIA: Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire.
I get the feeling that the Life and Times of Whathisname Organa would make a fascinating story. Maybe he saved Obi-Wan’s life or something.
-- LEIA: I regret that I’m unable to present my father’s request to you in person. My ship is under attack and I’m afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed.
So that’s why she was there. (She definitely knew where he was living -- exactly where, apparently -- which I’m guessing she knows from her father, Obi-Wan’s BFF.) I have to say, the idea of Leia making her way through the Jundland Wastes is positively lulzy.
Also: her tone is very ‘I have to go be tortured now kthxbai.’ Leia is hardcore.
-- LEIA: I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan.
So Leia couldn’t find any undercover Rebellion members to take it for her? She had to go to Tatooine and get Obi-Wan to take it for her? She must have known she’d be attacked and captured at some point, otherwise she could just take it herself, but ... did she just happen to be in the area or what?
Okay, I’m going to assume that her father is begging Obi-Wan to help him in his general struggle w/ the Empire and the courier service is more of a ‘while I’m here, please take this to Daddy OMG HELP.’
-- LEIA: *gestures* This is our most desperate hour.
I’m guessing her Force powers (which obviously don’t exist at the moment, but whatever) don’t give her foresight. ‘Cause I can think of a few worse ones she’ll face (like the end of the next movie).
-- LEIA: Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope.
*sniffle*
-- OBI-WAN: ... *rubs beard*
LUKE: ... *looks curious*
OBI-WAN: ... *looks thoughtful*
LUKE: ... *looks quizzical*
I now understand what Lucas was talking about when he said SW was inspired by silent movies.
-- OBI-WAN: *meaningful smile* You must learn the ways of the Force if you are to come with me to Alderaan.
Why? I mean, I can see why he wants to go to Alderaan, and I can see why he doesn’t want Luke out of his sight, and I can see why he wants Luke to learn the ways of the Force. I don’t see what any of these things have to do with each other.
-- LUKE: *wistful look* Alderaan?! *laughs* I’m not going to Alderaan! I’ve got to get home. It’s late, I’m in for it as it is.
OBI-WAN: I need your help, Luke. *pauses* She needs your help.
If I’ve got the official canon right, Obi-Wan (1) kidnapped Luke and his twin sister, (2) separated Luke from her, (3) lied to him about his father’s identity and disappearance, (4) sees Luke’s obvious crush, (5) tries to convince him to join an illegal secret society, and (5) when he refuses, uses Luke’s crush ON HIS SISTER (which is only possible because of the situation Obi-Wan himself has created), to manipulate him further.
...
>_<
Happy lala land! Obi-Wan does not in fact know Luke has a sister (otherwise his ‘???’ in ESB makes ... very little sense). But he’s certain that Jedi!Luke is the only person who can bring down the Emperor, and therefore teaching him to be one is only about the most important thing ever. So he’ll push that as hard as he ethically can. Emphasis on ethically.
-- OBI-WAN: I’m getting too old for this sort of thing.
How old is ANH!Obi-Wan, anyway? I think we can assume it’s a bit more than fifty. He’s always struck me as really old (like, a hundred and fifty or something), though I could budge a ways on that.
(It never occurred to me that he could be younger than he looks. I mean, in the last section he pretty strongly implied that he was 'old Obi-Wan' when he led Anakin off, so -- yeah.)
-- LUKE: *hesitates* *looks longingly at ... something* *grimaces* I can’t get involved! I’ve got work to do! It’s not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do right now!
Soooo ... Luke actively hates the Empire, but he still wants to join the Imperial Academy.
He must really hate Tatooine.
Also: this is the point at which I really started to like Luke. He desperately wants to leave, he’s trying to alter the deal with his uncle, he’s got a hero complex a mile wide, he wants to rescue the damsel in distress, and he’s just been given the opportunity to accomplish all of this AND become a Magic Knight like the heroic, glamourous father he idolises AND fight the tyrannical regime he loathes.
And he sticks by his duty, because even though he hates it, it’s his duty. Forget bangs and flashes and general skullcrushing and asskicking -- this is the stuff that heroes are made out of.
-- LUKE: And ... *sigh* it’s all such a long way from here.
OBI-WAN: That’s your uncle talking.
Ooh, some Lars characterisation. Even given that it’s Obi-Wan, the ultimate in unreliable narrators, it’s something -- at the very least, Obi-Wan sees Owen as the man who’s so focused on his life and his problems that he can’t see the big picture. (While he suggests Luke is parroting Owen’s worldview here, he seems pretty well convinced that Luke doesn’t actually share it. But then, he’s right, and he may be in a position to know it.)
Also, the characters talk with these odd, frequent emphases every few words. Kind of like comic books.
LUKE: *exhales* My uncle -- how am I ever going to explain this?
OBI-WAN: Learn about the Force, Luke.
LUKE: *hesitates* *takes the lightsabre* Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you’re going.
OBI-WAN: *looks away* You must do what you feel is right ... of course.
Of course. He wouldn’t dream of guilt tripping a teenage boy into rescuing a princess, converting to a religion with perks in the forms of superpowers and downsides in the form of treason, and abandoning his family. NEVER!
---------------------
(1) Obi-Wan refers to single Jedi in the masculine ('his'). This may or may not be meaningful.
(2) The Force (i) is generated by life, (ii) binds everything together, and (iii) grants certain powers to Jedi. As far as the latter's concerned, we don't know why -- just that it's rare and kind of arbitrary. Everybody, from young!Anakin to Obi-Wan to Owen, correctly assumes that Luke will inherit his father's sensitivity to the Force, so there seems to be a genetic component of some kind.
(3) During the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was a general in the service of the Alderaanian royal family (was he Alderaanian?), and it's by this identity that he's remembered. It's not clear whether it was even known that he was a Jedi.
(4) Obi-Wan immediately prepares to leave when his old ... employer's? ... request reaches him. Organa didn't fear that Obi-Wan had changed sides in the last 15-20 years. Their mutual trust appears to be absolute.
(5) Leia begs Obi-Wan to take the droid to her father, but presumably this is not the assistance Organa was originally asking for when he sent her to beg Obi-Wan's assistance in the war effort.
(6) Obi-Wan thinks Owen is pretty much sticking his head in the proverbial (and, heh, literal) sand, and trying to convince Luke to do the same. He also seems very confident that he'll have failed -- either because genetics are all-powerful in the GFFA, or simply because he knows Luke well enough to see that it's obviously not the case.
(7) Obi-Wan is a manipulative bastard.