The miniscopes...I did not know about that. The cruel irony of being trapped in the very thing he protested. And it echoes back to the punishments those who defied Rassilon's cruelty endured.
His non-memory was merciful in a way...but it only fueled his drive. And his anger when he realized he had been trapped. The Time Lords, the High Council, the Gray Council and the Celestial Intervention Agency always did know how to pull his strings and make him dance. I do believe in trying to demonstrated their power and anger (though he did spare them from their own foul stupidity. They would have died if he had left it all behind. And so would the rest of the universe. If they'd've pulled their heads out of their asses, they'd've realized he had a heavy choice - extinction to save the rest of the universe or removal to do the same - but like Daleks, they can't see beyond their own selfish, self-righteousness); they have made the gravest of mistakes. The manipulated him, Clara, Mayor Me (though she was easy...foolish, hot-headed, righteous, bored and quite stupid at times...common sense doesn't last through the ages it seems) and used a prison he had objected to (because Echoes of the Dark Times) to inflict a punishment that (if they stopped to think on it), he really hadn't earned. He saved them. It was unfortunate that the only way he could save them did exactly what the miniscopes did. But that was THEIR fault. Their technology after all...and very fitting, as I'm sure he was punished for deviating from standard Time Lord behavior. But like all dictators, they see their crimes being rendered unto them as special persecution and never equate it to their own wrongs.
I said much the same thing to someone else in their review: too bad they had all these years to reflect, to grow and change. And they didn't take that opportunity. How much you wanna bet they are worse than before. Not fit for the mercy he tried to give them. They were hardly in mind of mercy for anyone else. Foolish asshats. The fact they woke the King of Assholes should have clued the poor Doctor in. I wish they learned. Instead, they just grew stupid.
A small, rather cruel part of ME doesn't feel sorry for them one bit. I'm half afraid the Doctor will break his promise. I know he likely won't. But I wouldn't blame him for 'not being there' if someone choses to do it for him. Meh.
*HUGS*
Pssst...was I the only one thinking Gallifrey from the moment he 'arrived'? The chamber he arrived in, then the room, his mention of the veiled lady, the circular rooms (that could spell his name if moved correctly) - it all reminded me of Gallifrey. So I was not surprised at the reveal. It all made sense, really.
The miniscopes...I did not know about that. The cruel irony of being trapped in the very thing he protested. And it echoes back to the punishments those who defied Rassilon's cruelty endured. See, this is why I included that! The second we saw what it was, it was my first thought. Whether all Confession dials work like that, or if they just adapted that one, I don't know. But it makes perfect sense. Simple, effective, easily understood, and - for those who know - an added tie-back to the Classic show. (Miniscopes feature in various episodes, I forget which ones.)
And his anger when he realized he had been trapped. The Time Lords, the High Council, the Gray Council and the Celestial Intervention Agency always did know how to pull his strings and make him dance. This. They've always used him when they needed him, manipulating him for their own ends...
Their technology after all...and very fitting, as I'm sure he was punished for deviating from standard Time Lord behavior. But like all dictators, they see their crimes being rendered unto them as special persecution and never equate it to their own wrongs. *nods a lot*
I said much the same thing to someone else in their review: too bad they had all these years to reflect, to grow and change. And they didn't take that opportunity. How much you wanna bet they are worse than before. Not fit for the mercy he tried to give them. They were hardly in mind of mercy for anyone else. Foolish asshats. The fact they woke the King of Assholes should have clued the poor Doctor in. I wish they learned. Instead, they just grew stupid. Well, we don't know how much time passed for them. But yeah - The Sixth Doctor said it best:
The Doctor: "In all my travelling throughout the universe, I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here. The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to be really corrupt."
A small, rather cruel part of ME doesn't feel sorry for them one bit. I'm half afraid the Doctor will break his promise. I know he likely won't. But I wouldn't blame him for 'not being there' if someone choses to do it for him. Meh. I just wonder where they can go from here... Will they bring them back? How would that work in a wider context? They can't go back to being lost...
Pssst...was I the only one thinking Gallifrey from the moment he 'arrived'? The chamber he arrived in, then the room, his mention of the veiled lady, the circular rooms (that could spell his name if moved correctly) - it all reminded me of Gallifrey. So I was not surprised at the reveal. It all made sense, really. I think everyone was thinking Gallifrey, from last week onwards. And the episode most certainly laid the hints on heavily.
SIX: The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to be really corrupt.
or Eight and Cass:
CASS: Don't touch me! DOCTOR: I'm not part of the war. I swear to you, I never was. CASS: You're a Time Lord. DOCTOR: Yes, I'm a Time Lord, but I'm one of the nice ones. CASS: Get away from me! DOCTOR: Well, look on the bright side. I'm not a Dalek. CASS: Who can tell the difference any more?
So not only does the Church’s Interdict in Time of the Doctor exactly mirror the Pandorica gambit at the end of series 5, but maybe they had a point and they were right to try to keep the Time Lords from getting back into the universe? The mind boggles...
Lock the Doctor away and he can't try to 'rewrite Time', which was Eleven's mantra. Stop him before he knows he NEEDS to be stopped, because (unfortunately) he IS a Time Lord and is a rather determined and pig-headed one. He does still carry certain qualities of his race, even as they are watered down and turned towards (mostly) good intentions.
It is just funny - in a terrible way - that he wandered around thinking his race was gone and every OTHER race knew differently! All they had to do was lock him away and the problem would be solved. Bonus being: No more Time Lords EVER and they go back to being a myth.
Even if the Doctor being gone was the consequence. They know he is needed, but they also know he is dangerous. To himself and to the universe, even if he is unaware of HOW.
The his own people locked him away and it only drove him to do what every other race was trying to stop him from doing.
The concept 'pinged' dimly, but I couldn't recall it. I haven't seen most of Classic since I was small. Some things stuck with me. For some reason, the mini-scopes didn't. Though the '3-D' paintings also pinged for me. If you think on it, the tech, the idea and function is exactly the same. A painting is a snapshot, though - the mini-scopes are a full-capture.
I'm doing a rewatch (albeit slowly and on halt for a while), but I haven't hit anywhere near mini-scope territory yet, lol!
It is a terrible thing that it is so easy to imagine the Time Lords saying “He froze us in a pocket universe, so let’s do the same to him and see how he likes it.”
Never mind that he did it to them to save them all from being burned alive, and they seem mostly to be doing it out of spite and fear. As you say, “I wish they learned. Instead, they just grew stupid.”
(I still think - though I understand it would have made for a less dramatic story - that sensible Time Lords would just have stolen the information from the Doctor’s brain patterns while the copy of his brain was in the teleporter. But your comment clears up why that didn’t happen. It isn’t “sensible” Time Lords we’re dealing with here...)
Well, if you think about it, they never were sensible. S'why he never had any patience with them in the first place.
And to make it worse, they added another 2 billion years to their own clock. Maybe they were even aiming for an eternity - just to make their point - as I'm sure they were convinced (forgetting how the tech actually works) that he would eventually give up. Or worse never even try. After all, they would eventually give up. (Which is hilarious when you think on it, because if they gave up their sense of vengeance, the Doctor never would have been in that mini-scope in the first place).
Most of the creatures were likely unaware of what was happening to them (which makes it worse). The Doctor only had so much time before he became aware (which was engineered in, I'm sure). The whole thing registers as a poorly thought out temper tantrum. But once again, they show that they know just enough of him to put him through his paces.
They were always spiteful. And arrogant. And narcisstic. And power-mad, power-hungry and corrupt. They LIKE it that way. They will never see that he was trying to save them. They will see that he was trying to punish them for all the slights they visited upon them. They had no patience with waiting for him to find them. After all, if it was THEM, they would have left him to rot.
He doesn't work that way. Think that way. Something they never 'got' but always relied upon.
Every time I write about Gallifrey, I incorporate this type of thinking and behavior for his race. I hate to admi I find it fascinating, if repulsive. I also find it (sadly) echoes some of our worst human qualities.
A temper tantrum. I love it. And it feels very Deadly Assassin -
DOCTOR: The Master's consumed with hatred. It's his one great weakness. MASTER: Ha. Weakness, Doctor? Hate is strength. DOCTOR: Not in your case. You'd delay an execution to pull the wings off a fly. MASTER: This time, Doctor, the execution will not be delayed.
Except now the whole leadership of the race is like that. He saved them to save the 2.47 billion children, not for the leadership.
Going back to Six’s remarks in Trial of a Time Lord:
“In all my travellings throughout the universe I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here.”
It feels even more true in retrospect, and something you wish that he had actually done, gone back and changed the system from the inside instead of going out into the universe. Of course, maybe that’s what happens at a very long delay this episode, but... he might not be seeing clearly enough to do it properly. Which might be precisely what they were trying to engineer. A (on one level) very very clever temper tantrum...
Well, if one thinks about it, the Master is an embarrassment, because he is VERY Time Lord with the lid removed. He is THEM. They have always hid their proclivities behind slick facades, stuffiness, rules upon rules and a rigid society based on supposed benevolance.
They have always been this way. War just ripped the mask off. And once that mask is gone...
There was no way to change them. I'm sure he tried. Then he ran because he was scared (not bored). They were deadly. They were terrible. They were the devil in the details. And he was nothing like them. I'd be terrified myself! I would take the purest thing (unchanged, uncorrupted) and run, too. It would make sense. Impress upon the unspoiled youth the beauty beyond their narrow world, so even if forced back, they would not become that world.
Try to change it from the inside. All it takes is one.
But the corruption is so engrained, it would take MORE than that one. He likes impossible odds. But not THAT impossible.
“Good men don’t need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many.”
Oh, Eleven... because you’re right, “He does still carry certain qualities of his race, even as they are watered down and turned towards (mostly) good intentions.”
And you’re right, taking Susan and running in that context makes much more sense than it ever has before...
I always found it funny - Eleven admitted he was a liar and thereby, with all that he DID say, he proved to be the most honest Doctor. He certainly was the most terrifying. He was so happy-bouncy-joyous...and so very, very old, and angry - not willing to give in the slightest. And utterly aware of it.
He was all of them in one. The last (or so he thought) and all too aware of his own mistakes. Too bad he was too old to give much of a toss about being an old dog. He was always trying to new trick it.
luckweaver and I have certain details worked out between us.
But I need to finish Stepping Sideways. And then write the Saba stories. And the ones following that. And THEN tackle Gallifrey, if it does indeed return.
His non-memory was merciful in a way...but it only fueled his drive. And his anger when he realized he had been trapped. The Time Lords, the High Council, the Gray Council and the Celestial Intervention Agency always did know how to pull his strings and make him dance. I do believe in trying to demonstrated their power and anger . . . they have made the gravest of mistakes.
'Oh, big, big mistake, really huge. Didn't anyone ever tell you there's one thing you never put in a trap, if you're smart, if you value your continued existence, if you have any plans about seeing tomorrow, there's one thing you never, ever put in a trap . . . me.'
I really, really hope they do not make him regret his decision to help them. It wasn't the most ideal, yes but it was the best he could do in the time he had available.
OMG...
The miniscopes...I did not know about that. The cruel irony of being trapped in the very thing he protested. And it echoes back to the punishments those who defied Rassilon's cruelty endured.
His non-memory was merciful in a way...but it only fueled his drive. And his anger when he realized he had been trapped. The Time Lords, the High Council, the Gray Council and the Celestial Intervention Agency always did know how to pull his strings and make him dance. I do believe in trying to demonstrated their power and anger (though he did spare them from their own foul stupidity. They would have died if he had left it all behind. And so would the rest of the universe. If they'd've pulled their heads out of their asses, they'd've realized he had a heavy choice - extinction to save the rest of the universe or removal to do the same - but like Daleks, they can't see beyond their own selfish, self-righteousness); they have made the gravest of mistakes. The manipulated him, Clara, Mayor Me (though she was easy...foolish, hot-headed, righteous, bored and quite stupid at times...common sense doesn't last through the ages it seems) and used a prison he had objected to (because Echoes of the Dark Times) to inflict a punishment that (if they stopped to think on it), he really hadn't earned. He saved them. It was unfortunate that the only way he could save them did exactly what the miniscopes did. But that was THEIR fault. Their technology after all...and very fitting, as I'm sure he was punished for deviating from standard Time Lord behavior. But like all dictators, they see their crimes being rendered unto them as special persecution and never equate it to their own wrongs.
I said much the same thing to someone else in their review: too bad they had all these years to reflect, to grow and change. And they didn't take that opportunity. How much you wanna bet they are worse than before. Not fit for the mercy he tried to give them. They were hardly in mind of mercy for anyone else. Foolish asshats. The fact they woke the King of Assholes should have clued the poor Doctor in. I wish they learned. Instead, they just grew stupid.
A small, rather cruel part of ME doesn't feel sorry for them one bit. I'm half afraid the Doctor will break his promise. I know he likely won't. But I wouldn't blame him for 'not being there' if someone choses to do it for him. Meh.
*HUGS*
Pssst...was I the only one thinking Gallifrey from the moment he 'arrived'? The chamber he arrived in, then the room, his mention of the veiled lady, the circular rooms (that could spell his name if moved correctly) - it all reminded me of Gallifrey. So I was not surprised at the reveal. It all made sense, really.
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♥ ♥ ♥
The miniscopes...I did not know about that. The cruel irony of being trapped in the very thing he protested. And it echoes back to the punishments those who defied Rassilon's cruelty endured.
See, this is why I included that! The second we saw what it was, it was my first thought. Whether all Confession dials work like that, or if they just adapted that one, I don't know. But it makes perfect sense. Simple, effective, easily understood, and - for those who know - an added tie-back to the Classic show. (Miniscopes feature in various episodes, I forget which ones.)
And his anger when he realized he had been trapped. The Time Lords, the High Council, the Gray Council and the Celestial Intervention Agency always did know how to pull his strings and make him dance.
This. They've always used him when they needed him, manipulating him for their own ends...
Their technology after all...and very fitting, as I'm sure he was punished for deviating from standard Time Lord behavior. But like all dictators, they see their crimes being rendered unto them as special persecution and never equate it to their own wrongs.
*nods a lot*
I said much the same thing to someone else in their review: too bad they had all these years to reflect, to grow and change. And they didn't take that opportunity. How much you wanna bet they are worse than before. Not fit for the mercy he tried to give them. They were hardly in mind of mercy for anyone else. Foolish asshats. The fact they woke the King of Assholes should have clued the poor Doctor in. I wish they learned. Instead, they just grew stupid.
Well, we don't know how much time passed for them. But yeah - The Sixth Doctor said it best:
The Doctor: "In all my travelling throughout the universe, I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here. The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core. Power-mad conspirators, Daleks, Sontarans, Cybermen - they're still in the nursery compared to us. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to be really corrupt."
A small, rather cruel part of ME doesn't feel sorry for them one bit. I'm half afraid the Doctor will break his promise. I know he likely won't. But I wouldn't blame him for 'not being there' if someone choses to do it for him. Meh.
I just wonder where they can go from here... Will they bring them back? How would that work in a wider context? They can't go back to being lost...
Pssst...was I the only one thinking Gallifrey from the moment he 'arrived'? The chamber he arrived in, then the room, his mention of the veiled lady, the circular rooms (that could spell his name if moved correctly) - it all reminded me of Gallifrey. So I was not surprised at the reveal. It all made sense, really.
I think everyone was thinking Gallifrey, from last week onwards. And the episode most certainly laid the hints on heavily.
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or Eight and Cass:
CASS: Don't touch me!
DOCTOR: I'm not part of the war. I swear to you, I never was.
CASS: You're a Time Lord.
DOCTOR: Yes, I'm a Time Lord, but I'm one of the nice ones.
CASS: Get away from me!
DOCTOR: Well, look on the bright side. I'm not a Dalek.
CASS: Who can tell the difference any more?
So not only does the Church’s Interdict in Time of the Doctor exactly mirror the Pandorica gambit at the end of series 5, but maybe they had a point and they were right to try to keep the Time Lords from getting back into the universe? The mind boggles...
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It is just funny - in a terrible way - that he wandered around thinking his race was gone and every OTHER race knew differently! All they had to do was lock him away and the problem would be solved. Bonus being: No more Time Lords EVER and they go back to being a myth.
Even if the Doctor being gone was the consequence. They know he is needed, but they also know he is dangerous. To himself and to the universe, even if he is unaware of HOW.
The his own people locked him away and it only drove him to do what every other race was trying to stop him from doing.
*Sigh*
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I'm doing a rewatch (albeit slowly and on halt for a while), but I haven't hit anywhere near mini-scope territory yet, lol!
*HUGS*
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Never mind that he did it to them to save them all from being burned alive, and they seem mostly to be doing it out of spite and fear. As you say, “I wish they learned. Instead, they just grew stupid.”
(I still think - though I understand it would have made for a less dramatic story - that sensible Time Lords would just have stolen the information from the Doctor’s brain patterns while the copy of his brain was in the teleporter. But your comment clears up why that didn’t happen. It isn’t “sensible” Time Lords we’re dealing with here...)
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And to make it worse, they added another 2 billion years to their own clock. Maybe they were even aiming for an eternity - just to make their point - as I'm sure they were convinced (forgetting how the tech actually works) that he would eventually give up. Or worse never even try. After all, they would eventually give up. (Which is hilarious when you think on it, because if they gave up their sense of vengeance, the Doctor never would have been in that mini-scope in the first place).
Most of the creatures were likely unaware of what was happening to them (which makes it worse). The Doctor only had so much time before he became aware (which was engineered in, I'm sure). The whole thing registers as a poorly thought out temper tantrum. But once again, they show that they know just enough of him to put him through his paces.
They were always spiteful. And arrogant. And narcisstic. And power-mad, power-hungry and corrupt. They LIKE it that way. They will never see that he was trying to save them. They will see that he was trying to punish them for all the slights they visited upon them. They had no patience with waiting for him to find them. After all, if it was THEM, they would have left him to rot.
He doesn't work that way. Think that way. Something they never 'got' but always relied upon.
Every time I write about Gallifrey, I incorporate this type of thinking and behavior for his race. I hate to admi I find it fascinating, if repulsive. I also find it (sadly) echoes some of our worst human qualities.
And WOW, I ramble too much...
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DOCTOR: The Master's consumed with hatred. It's his one great weakness.
MASTER: Ha. Weakness, Doctor? Hate is strength.
DOCTOR: Not in your case. You'd delay an execution to pull the wings off a fly.
MASTER: This time, Doctor, the execution will not be delayed.
Except now the whole leadership of the race is like that. He saved them to save the 2.47 billion children, not for the leadership.
Going back to Six’s remarks in Trial of a Time Lord:
“In all my travellings throughout the universe I have battled against evil, against power-mad conspirators. I should have stayed here.”
It feels even more true in retrospect, and something you wish that he had actually done, gone back and changed the system from the inside instead of going out into the universe. Of course, maybe that’s what happens at a very long delay this episode, but... he might not be seeing clearly enough to do it properly. Which might be precisely what they were trying to engineer. A (on one level) very very clever temper tantrum...
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They have always been this way. War just ripped the mask off. And once that mask is gone...
There was no way to change them. I'm sure he tried. Then he ran because he was scared (not bored). They were deadly. They were terrible. They were the devil in the details. And he was nothing like them. I'd be terrified myself! I would take the purest thing (unchanged, uncorrupted) and run, too. It would make sense. Impress upon the unspoiled youth the beauty beyond their narrow world, so even if forced back, they would not become that world.
Try to change it from the inside. All it takes is one.
But the corruption is so engrained, it would take MORE than that one. He likes impossible odds. But not THAT impossible.
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Oh, Eleven... because you’re right, “He does still carry certain qualities of his race, even as they are watered down and turned towards (mostly) good intentions.”
And you’re right, taking Susan and running in that context makes much more sense than it ever has before...
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He was all of them in one. The last (or so he thought) and all too aware of his own mistakes. Too bad he was too old to give much of a toss about being an old dog. He was always trying to new trick it.
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luckweaver and I have certain details worked out between us.
But I need to finish Stepping Sideways. And then write the Saba stories. And the ones following that. And THEN tackle Gallifrey, if it does indeed return.
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'Oh, big, big mistake, really huge. Didn't anyone ever tell you there's one thing you never put in a trap, if you're smart, if you value your continued existence, if you have any plans about seeing tomorrow, there's one thing you never, ever put in a trap . . . me.'
This week should be interesting . . .
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I really, really hope they do not make him regret his decision to help them. It wasn't the most ideal, yes but it was the best he could do in the time he had available.
This week will be very interesting, indeed!
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