Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 30 2015, 13:20:04 UTC
Nice! But you make me nervous, damn you. (shakes fist) *I* make you nervous? Moffat has been slacking then. ;)
it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to fit it -and Miracle Day- into post RTD Doctor Who canon. Personally, I usually consider them -and most of Torchwood- to be in their own, nice, slightly alternate universe. Well, Children of Earth isn't too difficult. It's set in 2009 - so, before Eleven turns up - and most of the population probably didn't know exactly how far and how desperate it all was. There were weird aliens (and compared to the Dalek invasion the year before...), but in the end everything was fine.
As for Miracle Day (supposedly set between AGMGTW and LKH!) then the explanation is very simple: The crack ate it. Gone! :) (I can excuse/fanwank most things. Miracle Day is one of the few things that I genuinely dislike and find not just unpalatable, but impossible to reconcile with the rest of the 'verse.)
I love all your talk about what does (and doesn't) constitutes canon. Esp mystical, long-lost Hairdryer of Rassilon that fell into a black hole. I case you didn't know - Doctor Who doesn't have a canon. (Relevant post here. *g*)
Oh, you sweet summer child. Come on. Dearest, I'm not talking about *plot*. Plot is impossible to predict. I'm talking about story. We can take S5 as the best example, esp as you already brought it up. I didn't know how S5 would pan out, except for one thing: It had to end with Amy's wedding. How that would WORK when she was dead, Rory was erased (and then an auton), the Doctor locked up and the universe exploded... Why I didn't have the faintest idea. That's the plot. Could be anything. But I KNEW that there'd be a wedding at the end, or the whole thing was a lie. (And I was right!) I was also hoping that the Doctor would save the universe by being kind (such a key word for Eleven - see icon) - and HE DID.
So, that's what I mean. That's what I'm trying to work out. What will Clara's fate be, what ending is most fitting, symbolically, metaphorically (and narratively)? Some kind of godhood seems plausible, quite probably involving Gallifrey (and Daleks) but beyond that I'm not sure. I can see a vague shape, but nothing more.
is because -let’s get real cynical here- he’s the bloody title character I sort of said that, didn't I? /vaguely confused
Finally, were you making a Romeo and Juliet reference there, or do I need to repair my overly sensitive Intertextuality Radar? :) Oh totally Romeo & Juliet reference. Am glad someone spotted it! :)
Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 30 2015, 23:12:27 UTC
As for Miracle Day (supposedly set between AGMGTW and LKH!) then the explanation is very simple: The crack ate it. Gone! Isn’t our fandom amazing? Yes. Yes it is. Do *you* have such neat explanations Marvel? Do you? OM NOM NOM NOM.
"I am a crack on crack and I eat plot holes!" (gets booed)
I love all your talk about what does (and doesn't) constitute canon. Esp mystical, long-lost Hairdryer of Rassilon that fell into a black hole. I case you didn't know - Doctor Who doesn't have a canon. (Relevant post here) Well, I’m glad that it’s canon that our show doesn’t have a canon!...Wait... Also, “I hate the Doctor Who canon like Dawkins hates God”, is one of the greatest and most hilarious similes ever. (Seriously though Dawkins, tone it down a bit. Okay, I’m religious -I classify myself as a humanist anti-nihilist and an Orthodox Christian/Nature-Worshipping/Agnostic hybrid, so I’m not the norm I think, but anyway- but you are annoying atheists with your stance! Wow. Not helping your cause, is what I’m saying. There’s a very nice Cracked article -written by an atheist no less- on the subject by the way. Isn't there enough pointless arguing and petty hate in the world already? Can’t we all just get along? [Distributes hugs to friends of various beliefs and non-beliefs alike])
I didn't know how S5 would pan out, except for one thing: It had to end with Amy's wedding. How that would WORK when she was dead, Rory was erased (and then an auton), the Doctor locked up and the universe exploded... Why I didn't have the faintest idea. That's the plot. Could be anything. It is my most sincere conviction that Moffat writes by the Reverse Don Bluth Principle: No matter how happy an ending is, if the characters go through complete, absolute, total, fucking HELL first, the Whovians will be able to take it (and like it a lot) :)
I was also hoping that the Doctor would save the universe by being kind (such a key word for Eleven - see icon) - and HE DID. ELEVEN!!!!!!! (cries) I miss you. 12 is amazing, don’t get me wrong, but soft spots are soft spots. Plus, I cosplay as 11, so I feel unreasonably protective of him.
Oh totally Romeo & Juliet reference. Am glad someone spotted it! :) MWA HA HA! Every cell of my being burns with white-hot ecstasy! Intertextuality is my God, and I am the human instrument of its will!
Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 30 2015, 23:28:19 UTC
Isn’t our fandom amazing? Yes. Yes it is. Do *you* have such neat explanations Marvel? Do you? OM NOM NOM NOM. The crack is the BEST random plot point ever.
"I am a crack on crack and I eat plot holes!" (gets booed) *cheers*
Well, I’m glad that it’s canon that our show doesn’t have a canon!...Wait... LOL.
Also, “I hate the Doctor Who canon like Dawkins hates God”, is one of the greatest and most hilarious similes ever. I love that post.
Isn't there enough pointless arguing and petty hate in the world already? Can’t we all just get along? [Distributes hugs to friends of various beliefs and non-beliefs alike]) If god doesn't exist... Then surely he should just chill. Why get angry over something that's made up? An if God DOES exist - well, God loves him anyway. <3
It is my most sincere conviction that Moffat writes by the Reverse Don Bluth Principle: No matter how happy an ending is, if the characters go through complete, absolute, total, fucking HELL first, the Whovians will be able to take it (and like it a lot) :) Oh totally. Here's a quote:
"Because, just sentimentally, I like big victories. I don't like sacrificial lambs. I like the hero that brings everybody home, I think that's exciting, and I can't really be arsed with this feeling of 'Shame we didn't bring Trevor back with us as well...'. I like 'Aaah! Here comes Trevor - he's alive too!'. I like that! [...] Well, I'm saying this, but you haven't seen The Girl in the Fireplace... if there's a point to the bittersweet thing, fair enough - but I like big victories. And I like it when a film teases you with the possibility of a really dark ending [and ends up being the happiest thing evar] Doctor Who's on at 7 o'clock in the evening and it should be a bit like that. Also, it does buy you the right to be a bit darker earlier on."
I much prefer this to the RTD/Joss Whedon model where, whenever people are happy, you know that TERRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN NOW AND NOTHING WILL EVER BE OK AGAIN!
12 is amazing, don’t get me wrong, but soft spots are soft spots. Plus, I cosplay as 11, so I feel unreasonably protective of him. I like Twelve perfectly well, he's a very good Doctor. But Eleven is MY Doctor. (My middle girl cosplayed him when we went to see Day of the Doctor in the cinema. She looked awesome. Littlest girl was Amelia. Suitcase and all.)
MWA HA HA! Every cell of my being burns with white-hot ecstasy! Intertextuality is my God, and I am the human instrument of its will! It was only a quote... Seriously, everything I write is connected to everything else. Not usually Shakespeare though. Sometimes Dante. Or Dorothy Sayers. Or Buffy. I'm very random. :)
Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 31 2015, 12:37:44 UTC
If god doesn't exist...Then surely he should just chill. Why get angry over something that's made up? And if God DOES exist - well, God loves him anyway. <3 Exactly! (I take it you are on the “existing” camp in some form?) There are many much more urgent issues to worry, argue and get angry about in the world. Also, yes, screw whoever says that God hates atheists (Percy Shelley, Alan Turing, Stephen Fry, Terry Pratchett, Sylvester McCoy, Christopher Eccleston etc, etc seriously? ). God doesn’t hate anyone, *we* normal, flawed human beings can get along, and like and admire people who disagree with us on such matters, do you really think the possibly existing Supreme Being would be that petty?
I much prefer this to the RTD/Joss Whedon model where, whenever people are happy, you know that TERRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN NOW AND NOTHING WILL EVER BE OK AGAIN! You know, whenever you say that -and it’s very accurate, really- I can’t help but picture you SUDDENLY SHOUTING and wildly waving your hands about like Doc Brown. :)
My middle girl cosplayed him when we went to see Day of the Doctor in the cinema. She looked awesome. Littlest girl was Amelia. Suitcase and all. (Tries to imagine and dies of cuteness). Also, we didn’t get it on cinemas in my country. THREE QUARTERS OF THE FUCKING GLOBE DID, COME ON. (waves fist at whoever is responsible)
It was only a quote... Seriously, everything I write is connected to everything else. Not usually Shakespeare though. Sometimes Dante. Or Dorothy Sayers. Or Buffy. I'm very random. :) And I was paraphrasing an obscure comic book Supervillain called Snowflame, who is powered by cocaine (and then gives us many awesome, incredibly hammy quotes). I’m not exactly consistent either ;)
Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 31 2015, 14:06:00 UTC
Exactly! (I take it you are on the “existing” camp in some form?) Catholic, born & bred. But a) grew up in a Protestant country, so was always a minority and b) my father is a deacon, so I absorbed vast quantities of theology. (I find people such as f.ex. Philip Pullman insanely frustrating. I read an interview with him and all his arguments against faith/religion were excellent - it was just a shame that what he thinks faith/religion are bears very little resemblance to the actual thing. Criticism is good. Fighting your own made-up straw men is just stupid. /tangent
screw whoever says that God hates atheists And God SMOTE the Philistines... (Or maybe they've just watched too much FOX News and think white, Evangelical Republicans are actually representative of Christianity?)
You know, whenever you say that -and it’s very accurate, really- I can’t help but picture you SUDDENLY SHOUTING and wildly waving your hands about like Doc Brown. :) Only in my head. I'm very quiet in RL.
Tries to imagine and dies of cuteness) They were v. adorbz. ( Here, I've unlocked the post for you...)
Also, we didn’t get it on cinemas in my country. THREE QUARTERS OF THE FUCKING GLOBE DID, COME ON. (waves fist at whoever is responsible) It's still so weird to be IN the country where they make my favourite show. As I said, my first fandom was Buffy and we got everything LATE.
And I was paraphrasing an obscure comic book Supervillain called Snowflame, who is powered by cocaine (and then gives us many awesome, incredibly hammy quotes).
Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 31 2015, 16:15:03 UTC
I find people such as Philip Pullman insanely frustrating. I read an interview with him and all his arguments against faith/religion were excellent - it was just a shame that what he thinks faith/religion are bears very little resemblance to the actual thing. Criticism is good. Fighting your own made-up straw men is just stupid. /tangent Good point, and it applies to many, many critics, unfortunately. Pullman frustrates me for another reason -and it’s a shame, because he’s a good writer: You say you are the anti-C.S Lewis, right? Okay. The Narnia books are all a total Bible allegory, and Christian propaganda? Cool. Well, *your* books are a total *atheist* allegory and propaganda by that standard! The main problem in both cases, is that THEY ARE A VERY *SPECIFIC* ALLEGORY, AND PROPAGANDA. And that is BORING. I don’t care what the message is. Just because I agree with Lewis, it doesn’t mean that I won’t be annoyed when there’s VERY SYMBOLIC SYMBOLISM, HE IS JESUS, END OF STORY. Same goes with you. Ooooh, that is the Vatican and you hate it, I get that. Can’t I just enjoy a story without having an interpretation *forced* on me? I’m not saying there should be A BILLION different ones, but yeah, I want a choice. When your allegory *overtakes* the story, when it distracts me, when it seems to me that you are just looking for another medium to state your beliefs, I can’t enjoy it. Of course your personal beliefs will play a part in what you write, it might even be a basic one. But stories whose main purpose is not propaganda, not a concealed blow against something you don’t like, which can be enjoyed by people no matter what they believe in -and they are, are SUPERIOR. (Worships Tolkien, Terry Prachett and Rowling like gods). /reply tangent
And God SMOTE the Philistines... (Or maybe they've just watched too much FOX News and think white, Evangelical Republicans are actually representative of Christianity?) And even if they *did*, not all white Evangelical Republicans hate atheists, homosexuals etc, so those who do, don’t really have an excuse…People, just don’t be assholes to each other? Love thy neighbor and all that? People *reject* Christianity because of your behaviour, it’s impractical if nothing else, is what I’m saying. "God prefers kind atheists over hateful Christian." Basically, yeah, the hateful part, that’s the problem, stop it. Really, everything else is cool. Believe or don’t believe whatever you want, marry whomever you like (yay, for the legalization), God loves everyone, He won’t reject you. Live, and be happy, and make others so :)
(looks above) And all this began out of Doctor Who, people. Wow, we got really off topic, specific, political and serious here!
They were v. adorbz. (I've unlocked the post for you...) Oh, it wants me to log in :( Doesn’t matter, really, thanks for the effort. ;)
Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 31 2015, 16:23:35 UTC
Pullman frustrates me for another reason -and it’s a shame, because he’s a good writer: You say you are the anti-C.S Lewis, right? Okay. The Narnia books are all a total Bible allegory, and Christian propaganda? Cool. Well, *your* books are a total *atheist* allegory and propaganda by that standard! As far as I was aware he's quite open about that fact?
When your allegory *overtakes* the story, when it distracts me, when it seems to me that you are just looking for another medium to state your beliefs, I can’t enjoy it. I adore the Narnia books, but I know what you mean. (Especially negative allegory. You wrote something just because you hate it? How awful. Why would I want to read that?)
(Worships Tolkien, Terry Prachett and Rowling like gods). /reply tangent As I'm sure you know, Tolkien is on record saying that he always despised allegory in all its forms, ever since he was old enough to detect it. (This is reply to people who thought that LotR was an allegory of the Second World War.)
Believe or don’t believe whatever you want, marry whomever you like (yay, for the legalization), God loves everyone, He won’t reject you. Live, and be happy, and make others so :) Hear, hear!
(looks above) And all this began out of Doctor Who, people. Wow, we got really off topic, specific, political and serious here! Welcome to my livejournal. Have I offered you a cup of tea and a biscuit yet? Please make yourself at home.
Oh, it wants me to log in :( Doesn’t matter, really, thanks for the effort. ;) That's because I'm an idiot who WROTE that I unlocked it, and then forgot to do so. (Or maybe my subconscious is trying to lure you onboard...)
RE: Re: You Know Whopromethia_tenkOctober 31 2015, 19:06:00 UTC
In defense of His Dark Materials, I haven't read any interviews with Pullman, so I don't know how he thinks of the books, but they seem to me to be as interested in positing a spiritual alternative to institutionalized religion as they are with simply attacking it.
And, yes, they are highly allegorical. Though I have no problems with this, which should surprise nobody *g*
Re: Re: You Know WhoelisiOctober 31 2015, 19:10:34 UTC
but they seem to me to be as interested in positing a spiritual alternative to institutionalized religion as they are with simply attacking it. Fair nuff. I haven't read them (I don't even have time to read the stuff I WANT to read), so I don't have a [particularly informed opinion on them as literature.
And, yes, they are highly allegorical. Though I have no problems with this, which should surprise nobody *g* Why I NEVER!!!
*I* make you nervous? Moffat has been slacking then. ;)
it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to fit it -and Miracle Day- into post RTD Doctor Who canon. Personally, I usually consider them -and most of Torchwood- to be in their own, nice, slightly alternate universe.
Well, Children of Earth isn't too difficult. It's set in 2009 - so, before Eleven turns up - and most of the population probably didn't know exactly how far and how desperate it all was. There were weird aliens (and compared to the Dalek invasion the year before...), but in the end everything was fine.
As for Miracle Day (supposedly set between AGMGTW and LKH!) then the explanation is very simple: The crack ate it. Gone! :) (I can excuse/fanwank most things. Miracle Day is one of the few things that I genuinely dislike and find not just unpalatable, but impossible to reconcile with the rest of the 'verse.)
I love all your talk about what does (and doesn't) constitutes canon. Esp mystical, long-lost Hairdryer of Rassilon that fell into a black hole. I case you didn't know - Doctor Who doesn't have a canon. (Relevant post here. *g*)
Oh, you sweet summer child. Come on.
Dearest, I'm not talking about *plot*. Plot is impossible to predict. I'm talking about story. We can take S5 as the best example, esp as you already brought it up. I didn't know how S5 would pan out, except for one thing: It had to end with Amy's wedding. How that would WORK when she was dead, Rory was erased (and then an auton), the Doctor locked up and the universe exploded... Why I didn't have the faintest idea. That's the plot. Could be anything. But I KNEW that there'd be a wedding at the end, or the whole thing was a lie. (And I was right!) I was also hoping that the Doctor would save the universe by being kind (such a key word for Eleven - see icon) - and HE DID.
So, that's what I mean. That's what I'm trying to work out. What will Clara's fate be, what ending is most fitting, symbolically, metaphorically (and narratively)? Some kind of godhood seems plausible, quite probably involving Gallifrey (and Daleks) but beyond that I'm not sure. I can see a vague shape, but nothing more.
is because -let’s get real cynical here- he’s the bloody title character
I sort of said that, didn't I? /vaguely confused
Finally, were you making a Romeo and Juliet reference there, or do I need to repair my overly sensitive Intertextuality Radar? :)
Oh totally Romeo & Juliet reference. Am glad someone spotted it! :)
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Isn’t our fandom amazing? Yes. Yes it is. Do *you* have such neat explanations Marvel? Do you? OM NOM NOM NOM.
"I am a crack on crack and I eat plot holes!" (gets booed)
I love all your talk about what does (and doesn't) constitute canon. Esp mystical, long-lost Hairdryer of Rassilon that fell into a black hole. I case you didn't know - Doctor Who doesn't have a canon. (Relevant post here)
Well, I’m glad that it’s canon that our show doesn’t have a canon!...Wait...
Also, “I hate the Doctor Who canon like Dawkins hates God”, is one of the greatest and most hilarious similes ever.
(Seriously though Dawkins, tone it down a bit. Okay, I’m religious -I classify myself as a humanist anti-nihilist and an Orthodox Christian/Nature-Worshipping/Agnostic hybrid, so I’m not the norm I think, but anyway- but you are annoying atheists with your stance! Wow. Not helping your cause, is what I’m saying. There’s a very nice Cracked article -written by an atheist no less- on the subject by the way. Isn't there enough pointless arguing and petty hate in the world already? Can’t we all just get along? [Distributes hugs to friends of various beliefs and non-beliefs alike])
I didn't know how S5 would pan out, except for one thing: It had to end with Amy's wedding. How that would WORK when she was dead, Rory was erased (and then an auton), the Doctor locked up and the universe exploded... Why I didn't have the faintest idea. That's the plot. Could be anything.
It is my most sincere conviction that Moffat writes by the Reverse Don Bluth Principle: No matter how happy an ending is, if the characters go through complete, absolute, total, fucking HELL first, the Whovians will be able to take it (and like it a lot) :)
I was also hoping that the Doctor would save the universe by being kind (such a key word for Eleven - see icon) - and HE DID.
ELEVEN!!!!!!! (cries) I miss you.
12 is amazing, don’t get me wrong, but soft spots are soft spots. Plus, I cosplay as 11, so I feel unreasonably protective of him.
Oh totally Romeo & Juliet reference. Am glad someone spotted it! :)
MWA HA HA! Every cell of my being burns with white-hot ecstasy! Intertextuality is my God, and I am the human instrument of its will!
Reply
The crack is the BEST random plot point ever.
"I am a crack on crack and I eat plot holes!" (gets booed)
*cheers*
Well, I’m glad that it’s canon that our show doesn’t have a canon!...Wait...
LOL.
Also, “I hate the Doctor Who canon like Dawkins hates God”, is one of the greatest and most hilarious similes ever.
I love that post.
Isn't there enough pointless arguing and petty hate in the world already? Can’t we all just get along? [Distributes hugs to friends of various beliefs and non-beliefs alike])
If god doesn't exist... Then surely he should just chill. Why get angry over something that's made up? An if God DOES exist - well, God loves him anyway. <3
It is my most sincere conviction that Moffat writes by the Reverse Don Bluth Principle: No matter how happy an ending is, if the characters go through complete, absolute, total, fucking HELL first, the Whovians will be able to take it (and like it a lot) :)
Oh totally. Here's a quote:
"Because, just sentimentally, I like big victories. I don't like sacrificial lambs. I like the hero that brings everybody home, I think that's exciting, and I can't really be arsed with this feeling of 'Shame we didn't bring Trevor back with us as well...'. I like 'Aaah! Here comes Trevor - he's alive too!'. I like that! [...] Well, I'm saying this, but you haven't seen The Girl in the Fireplace... if there's a point to the bittersweet thing, fair enough - but I like big victories. And I like it when a film teases you with the possibility of a really dark ending [and ends up being the happiest thing evar] Doctor Who's on at 7 o'clock in the evening and it should be a bit like that. Also, it does buy you the right to be a bit darker earlier on."
I much prefer this to the RTD/Joss Whedon model where, whenever people are happy, you know that TERRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN NOW AND NOTHING WILL EVER BE OK AGAIN!
12 is amazing, don’t get me wrong, but soft spots are soft spots. Plus, I cosplay as 11, so I feel unreasonably protective of him.
I like Twelve perfectly well, he's a very good Doctor. But Eleven is MY Doctor. (My middle girl cosplayed him when we went to see Day of the Doctor in the cinema. She looked awesome. Littlest girl was Amelia. Suitcase and all.)
MWA HA HA! Every cell of my being burns with white-hot ecstasy! Intertextuality is my God, and I am the human instrument of its will!
It was only a quote... Seriously, everything I write is connected to everything else. Not usually Shakespeare though. Sometimes Dante. Or Dorothy Sayers. Or Buffy. I'm very random. :)
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Exactly! (I take it you are on the “existing” camp in some form?) There are many much more urgent issues to worry, argue and get angry about in the world. Also, yes, screw whoever says that God hates atheists (Percy Shelley, Alan Turing, Stephen Fry, Terry Pratchett, Sylvester McCoy, Christopher Eccleston etc, etc seriously? ). God doesn’t hate anyone, *we* normal, flawed human beings can get along, and like and admire people who disagree with us on such matters, do you really think the possibly existing Supreme Being would be that petty?
I much prefer this to the RTD/Joss Whedon model where, whenever people are happy, you know that TERRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN NOW AND NOTHING WILL EVER BE OK AGAIN!
You know, whenever you say that -and it’s very accurate, really- I can’t help but picture you SUDDENLY SHOUTING and wildly waving your hands about like Doc Brown. :)
My middle girl cosplayed him when we went to see Day of the Doctor in the cinema. She looked awesome. Littlest girl was Amelia. Suitcase and all.
(Tries to imagine and dies of cuteness). Also, we didn’t get it on cinemas in my country. THREE QUARTERS OF THE FUCKING GLOBE DID, COME ON. (waves fist at whoever is responsible)
It was only a quote... Seriously, everything I write is connected to everything else. Not usually Shakespeare though. Sometimes Dante. Or Dorothy Sayers. Or Buffy. I'm very random. :)
And I was paraphrasing an obscure comic book Supervillain called Snowflame, who is powered by cocaine (and then gives us many awesome, incredibly hammy quotes). I’m not exactly consistent either ;)
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Catholic, born & bred. But a) grew up in a Protestant country, so was always a minority and b) my father is a deacon, so I absorbed vast quantities of theology. (I find people such as f.ex. Philip Pullman insanely frustrating. I read an interview with him and all his arguments against faith/religion were excellent - it was just a shame that what he thinks faith/religion are bears very little resemblance to the actual thing. Criticism is good. Fighting your own made-up straw men is just stupid. /tangent
screw whoever says that God hates atheists
And God SMOTE the Philistines... (Or maybe they've just watched too much FOX News and think white, Evangelical Republicans are actually representative of Christianity?)
You know, whenever you say that -and it’s very accurate, really- I can’t help but picture you SUDDENLY SHOUTING and wildly waving your hands about like Doc Brown. :)
Only in my head. I'm very quiet in RL.
Tries to imagine and dies of cuteness)
They were v. adorbz. ( Here, I've unlocked the post for you...)
Also, we didn’t get it on cinemas in my country. THREE QUARTERS OF THE FUCKING GLOBE DID, COME ON. (waves fist at whoever is responsible)
It's still so weird to be IN the country where they make my favourite show. As I said, my first fandom was Buffy and we got everything LATE.
And I was paraphrasing an obscure comic book Supervillain called Snowflame, who is powered by cocaine (and then gives us many awesome, incredibly hammy quotes).
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Good point, and it applies to many, many critics, unfortunately.
Pullman frustrates me for another reason -and it’s a shame, because he’s a good writer: You say you are the anti-C.S Lewis, right? Okay. The Narnia books are all a total Bible allegory, and Christian propaganda? Cool. Well, *your* books are a total *atheist* allegory and propaganda by that standard!
The main problem in both cases, is that THEY ARE A VERY *SPECIFIC* ALLEGORY, AND PROPAGANDA. And that is BORING. I don’t care what the message is. Just because I agree with Lewis, it doesn’t mean that I won’t be annoyed when there’s VERY SYMBOLIC SYMBOLISM, HE IS JESUS, END OF STORY. Same goes with you. Ooooh, that is the Vatican and you hate it, I get that. Can’t I just enjoy a story without having an interpretation *forced* on me? I’m not saying there should be A BILLION different ones, but yeah, I want a choice. When your allegory *overtakes* the story, when it distracts me, when it seems to me that you are just looking for another medium to state your beliefs, I can’t enjoy it.
Of course your personal beliefs will play a part in what you write, it might even be a basic one. But stories whose main purpose is not propaganda, not a concealed blow against something you don’t like, which can be enjoyed by people no matter what they believe in -and they are, are SUPERIOR. (Worships Tolkien, Terry Prachett and Rowling like gods). /reply tangent
And God SMOTE the Philistines... (Or maybe they've just watched too much FOX News and think white, Evangelical Republicans are actually representative of Christianity?)
And even if they *did*, not all white Evangelical Republicans hate atheists, homosexuals etc, so those who do, don’t really have an excuse…People, just don’t be assholes to each other? Love thy neighbor and all that? People *reject* Christianity because of your behaviour, it’s impractical if nothing else, is what I’m saying.
"God prefers kind atheists over hateful Christian." Basically, yeah, the hateful part, that’s the problem, stop it. Really, everything else is cool. Believe or don’t believe whatever you want, marry whomever you like (yay, for the legalization), God loves everyone, He won’t reject you. Live, and be happy, and make others so :)
(looks above) And all this began out of Doctor Who, people. Wow, we got really off topic, specific, political and serious here!
They were v. adorbz. (I've unlocked the post for you...)
Oh, it wants me to log in :( Doesn’t matter, really, thanks for the effort. ;)
Reply
As far as I was aware he's quite open about that fact?
When your allegory *overtakes* the story, when it distracts me, when it seems to me that you are just looking for another medium to state your beliefs, I can’t enjoy it.
I adore the Narnia books, but I know what you mean. (Especially negative allegory. You wrote something just because you hate it? How awful. Why would I want to read that?)
(Worships Tolkien, Terry Prachett and Rowling like gods). /reply tangent
As I'm sure you know, Tolkien is on record saying that he always despised allegory in all its forms, ever since he was old enough to detect it. (This is reply to people who thought that LotR was an allegory of the Second World War.)
Believe or don’t believe whatever you want, marry whomever you like (yay, for the legalization), God loves everyone, He won’t reject you. Live, and be happy, and make others so :)
Hear, hear!
(looks above) And all this began out of Doctor Who, people. Wow, we got really off topic, specific, political and serious here!
Welcome to my livejournal. Have I offered you a cup of tea and a biscuit yet? Please make yourself at home.
Oh, it wants me to log in :( Doesn’t matter, really, thanks for the effort. ;)
That's because I'm an idiot who WROTE that I unlocked it, and then forgot to do so. (Or maybe my subconscious is trying to lure you onboard...)
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And, yes, they are highly allegorical. Though I have no problems with this, which should surprise nobody *g*
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Fair nuff. I haven't read them (I don't even have time to read the stuff I WANT to read), so I don't have a [particularly informed opinion on them as literature.
And, yes, they are highly allegorical. Though I have no problems with this, which should surprise nobody *g*
Why I NEVER!!!
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but don't spring something like that on me again!
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Partly because tonight's episode was such a monumental allegory that, well. Narnia would be a good comparison.
(But let's discuss it elsewhere. Am TRYING to keep posts spoiler free.)
:)
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