Longer gap than expected because I saw the Met at the Movies re-broadcast of Carmen and then had to get my thoughts together on that, which took too long. But while watching Don José hide Carmen’s red flower before turning to greet Micaëla in her blue dress I had the same thought that you did in the comments to purplefringe’s meta (don’t have a dreamwidth account or I would have commented there), that it was possible that the Clara was a fobwatched!future-Doctor after all, in which case Moffat must be laughing so hard because he gave us Peter Capaldi and a female Doctor and a female Master *all at the same time*.
In my excised paragraph about the “Clara Oswald never existed” moment, and how that scene might have been put in “Death in Heaven” just to blow up the internets by including it in the trailer (and, to be fair, the internets did blow up), I wondered why, given that the Cyber-scan would presumably have shown that the Clara/Doctor had one heart and not two, the Cybermen would still hesitate. But if their knowledge of the Doctor included the chameleon arch, a single heart might not be enough to prove that “Clara” wasn’t the Doctor.
But just because we love someone doesn’t mean that we don’t hurt them, or manipulate them… Or turn them into a mirror of ourselves, deliberately or by accident. - Somebody I cared deeply about said of me, many years ago, in declining to have anything further to do with me: “Your desire and ability to make other spirits into a reflection of your own was perhaps the thing that made me most wary in the first place, so at least I have been justified in that fear.” So yes. Indeed. Well said.
I need my friend back - This is the moment in the episode that breaks my heart. I get that it should be Clara/Danny, I get that Missy is wrong and evil, but... she’s *trying*. And getting it horribly wrong, granted, but...
Please, just, just see me - But I would never have thought of juxtaposing it with this moment, and now that you have, as is usual with your meta, it is so completely self-evident. Perfect.
We now know the answer. Missy. Yet another ‘egomaniac, needy, game-player sort of person’... - Bless...
Dalek!Oswin and Cyberman!Danny - Again, of course! But I didn’t see it...
Because if Clara is a Doctor mirror, then Danny is her River. And the River/Danny parallels run deep. - Is simply in awe at this point...
There need be nothing more. 'Just Clara' is an incredible person. looked at in the right way, the nice 2D image falls away and there's a whole landscape of 3D stuff. - Still not all the way on this one, but as you say, if she is, I wouldn’t be surprised either.
(The Doctor helps Clara, but refuses Missy.) - Entirely your fault that I re-downloaded “The Long Game” from iTunes to re-watch the point at the end where Adam (now with the chip in his forehead) is begging Nine to take him away and he says “I only take the best. I’ve got Rose.”
Now of course River was very Missy-like - she was raised to be a psychopath and killing machine - but when it came to love, she understood perfectly that love is a promise: - More mirrors. You know, the people who say that Steven Moffat only writes one female character over and over again, while obviously completely wrong, are so very close to something wonderfully right that they are never going to see that it’s a little mind-blowing.
and it's like just at the moment when everything should have burst into blossom . . . it all turned to rot.
And why? Because Danny died. Danny was Clara’s future, her ‘blossoming’ - they were going to marry, have children, carry on life. But he dies - and therefore the symbolism follows, which leads to death across the whole Earth. - And there I had been, hoping with the people who hoped that Clara was already pregnant, so the future Orson Pink timeline was still there. But of course it makes so much more sense that she isn’t, and it isn’t. Unfortunately.
Longer gap than expected because I saw the Met at the Movies re-broadcast of Carmen That is an excellent reason to be delayed! (This was my banner post-The Snowmen...)
on’t have a dreamwidth account or I would have commented there You can log in with OpenID! 'Tis v. simple. You can even upload icons. :)
that it was possible that the Clara was a fobwatched!future-Doctor after all, in which case Moffat must be laughing so hard because he gave us Peter Capaldi and a female Doctor and a female Master *all at the same time*. It's exactly the sort of trolling Moffat might do...
But if their knowledge of the Doctor included the chameleon arch, a single heart might not be enough to prove that “Clara” wasn’t the Doctor. The Doctor is a Trickster... The Cybermen would know this. Also Clara is behaving just like the Doctor, by talking her way out of the situation.
- Somebody I cared deeply about said of me, many years ago, in declining to have anything further to do with me: “Your desire and ability to make other spirits into a reflection of your own was perhaps the thing that made me most wary in the first place, so at least I have been justified in that fear.” So yes. Indeed. Well said. Goodness. It would seem you, too, are the Doctor.
- This is the moment in the episode that breaks my heart. I get that it should be Clara/Danny, I get that Missy is wrong and evil, but... she’s *trying*. And getting it horribly wrong, granted, but... Oh it is the most gorgeous moment. It's what Ten say, over and over, but the Master is too busy. But now... I think it's at the very heart of everything. Ten/Master was all over slash, but Twelve/Missy is about friendship. Damn, now I want to get out The Four Loves and quote enormous chunks... (I posted the main parts here. And now I am all verklempt again. Because in some ways the shippy aspects overshadows the main truth of the Doctor and the Master. Just look at the kiss. It's the same joyous kiss that Eleven would plant on Rory. It's not the kiss that's important, but the sentiment behind it.)
- But I would never have thought of juxtaposing it with this moment, and now that you have, as is usual with your meta, it is so completely self-evident. Perfect. It was a late addition, when yet another moment slotted together perfectly. :)
- Again, of course! But I didn’t see it... EVERYONE GETS MONSTER'D! (And I think Danny had to be monster'd. Especially if he's coming back.)
- Is simply in awe at this point... ♥
- Still not all the way on this one, but as you say, if she is, I wouldn’t be surprised either. I don't think that's where we're going. BUT. It bothers me. *pokes*
- Entirely your fault that I re-downloaded “The Long Game” from iTunes to re-watch the point at the end where Adam (now with the chip in his forehead) is begging Nine to take him away and he says “I only take the best. I’ve got Rose.” That's sort of problematic in itself? I prefer 'I choose my friends with great care'.
- More mirrors. You know, the people who say that Steven Moffat only writes one female character over and over again, while obviously completely wrong, are so very close to something wonderfully right that they are never going to see that it’s a little mind-blowing. Yup. Poor things.
- And there I had been, hoping with the people who hoped that Clara was already pregnant, so the future Orson Pink timeline was still there. But of course it makes so much more sense that she isn’t, and it isn’t. Unfortunately. Well she COULD be. Or Danny could return. Or... something else.
Hence (if you will not misunderstand me) the exquisite arbitrariness and irresponsibility of this love ... pets Ten, who I think must have misunderstood C. S. Lewis on this point.
The typical expression of opening Friendship would be something like, 'What? You too? I thought I was the only one.' ... from a slightly different though still Oxonian shared context: “And if you can quote Kai Lung, we should certainly get on together.”
not that help will be given when the pinch comes (of course it will) but that, having been given, it makes no difference at all. ... “it makes no difference at all.” “I forgive you.” Oh, Ten. You got it so terribly, terribly wrong. Verklempt, indeed.
Makes mental note to re-read The Four Loves at the earliest available opportunity. Which will not be this evening, unfortunately.
Agree that Nine’s line is more problematic, and that your emendation is what Eleven or Twelve would have said at that point. “Clara Oswald. Your assistant?” “My friend.”
... pets Ten, who I think must have misunderstood C. S. Lewis on this point. Heeeee.
... from a slightly different though still Oxonian shared context: “And if you can quote Kai Lung, we should certainly get on together.” Oh yes, excellent.
... “it makes no difference at all.” “I forgive you.” Oh, Ten. You got it so terribly, terribly wrong. Verklempt, indeed. It's a masterpiece in getting it wrong. Although I, too, want to re-read The Four Loves now. I think maybe the thing is that Ten swapped Friendship-love for Eros-love (Eros love being completely singleminded and ready to do anything to be with the beloved). So Ten/Master really *was* a love story, and Twelve/Missy has returned it to its proper place. (I wrote a crack theory once about how they might originally have fallen out... *g*)
Agree that Nine’s line is more problematic, and that your emendation is what Eleven or Twelve would have said at that point. “Clara Oswald. Your assistant?” “My friend.” Someone, somewhere, called out Nine on that line. But I presume RTD chose that phrasing in order to make Adam feel how much he'd messed up.
Longer gap than expected because I saw the Met at the Movies re-broadcast of Carmen and then had to get my thoughts together on that, which took too long. But while watching Don José hide Carmen’s red flower before turning to greet Micaëla in her blue dress I had the same thought that you did in the comments to purplefringe’s meta (don’t have a dreamwidth account or I would have commented there), that it was possible that the Clara was a fobwatched!future-Doctor after all, in which case Moffat must be laughing so hard because he gave us Peter Capaldi and a female Doctor and a female Master *all at the same time*.
In my excised paragraph about the “Clara Oswald never existed” moment, and how that scene might have been put in “Death in Heaven” just to blow up the internets by including it in the trailer (and, to be fair, the internets did blow up), I wondered why, given that the Cyber-scan would presumably have shown that the Clara/Doctor had one heart and not two, the Cybermen would still hesitate. But if their knowledge of the Doctor included the chameleon arch, a single heart might not be enough to prove that “Clara” wasn’t the Doctor.
But just because we love someone doesn’t mean that we don’t hurt them, or manipulate them… Or turn them into a mirror of ourselves, deliberately or by accident.
- Somebody I cared deeply about said of me, many years ago, in declining to have anything further to do with me: “Your desire and ability to make other spirits into a reflection of your own was perhaps the thing that made me most wary in the first place, so at least I have been justified in that fear.” So yes. Indeed. Well said.
I need my friend back
- This is the moment in the episode that breaks my heart. I get that it should be Clara/Danny, I get that Missy is wrong and evil, but... she’s *trying*. And getting it horribly wrong, granted, but...
Please, just, just see me
- But I would never have thought of juxtaposing it with this moment, and now that you have, as is usual with your meta, it is so completely self-evident. Perfect.
We now know the answer. Missy. Yet another ‘egomaniac, needy, game-player sort of person’...
- Bless...
Dalek!Oswin and Cyberman!Danny
- Again, of course! But I didn’t see it...
Because if Clara is a Doctor mirror, then Danny is her River. And the River/Danny parallels run deep.
- Is simply in awe at this point...
There need be nothing more. 'Just Clara' is an incredible person.
looked at in the right way, the nice 2D image falls away and there's a whole landscape of 3D stuff.
- Still not all the way on this one, but as you say, if she is, I wouldn’t be surprised either.
(The Doctor helps Clara, but refuses Missy.)
- Entirely your fault that I re-downloaded “The Long Game” from iTunes to re-watch the point at the end where Adam (now with the chip in his forehead) is begging Nine to take him away and he says “I only take the best. I’ve got Rose.”
Now of course River was very Missy-like - she was raised to be a psychopath and killing machine - but when it came to love, she understood perfectly that love is a promise:
- More mirrors. You know, the people who say that Steven Moffat only writes one female character over and over again, while obviously completely wrong, are so very close to something wonderfully right that they are never going to see that it’s a little mind-blowing.
and it's like just at the moment when everything should have burst into blossom . . . it all turned to rot.
And why? Because Danny died. Danny was Clara’s future, her ‘blossoming’ - they were going to marry, have children, carry on life. But he dies - and therefore the symbolism follows, which leads to death across the whole Earth.
- And there I had been, hoping with the people who hoped that Clara was already pregnant, so the future Orson Pink timeline was still there. But of course it makes so much more sense that she isn’t, and it isn’t. Unfortunately.
part 1 of 2 because LJ...
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That is an excellent reason to be delayed! (This was my banner post-The Snowmen...)
on’t have a dreamwidth account or I would have commented there
You can log in with OpenID! 'Tis v. simple. You can even upload icons. :)
that it was possible that the Clara was a fobwatched!future-Doctor after all, in which case Moffat must be laughing so hard because he gave us Peter Capaldi and a female Doctor and a female Master *all at the same time*.
It's exactly the sort of trolling Moffat might do...
But if their knowledge of the Doctor included the chameleon arch, a single heart might not be enough to prove that “Clara” wasn’t the Doctor.
The Doctor is a Trickster... The Cybermen would know this. Also Clara is behaving just like the Doctor, by talking her way out of the situation.
- Somebody I cared deeply about said of me, many years ago, in declining to have anything further to do with me: “Your desire and ability to make other spirits into a reflection of your own was perhaps the thing that made me most wary in the first place, so at least I have been justified in that fear.” So yes. Indeed. Well said.
Goodness. It would seem you, too, are the Doctor.
- This is the moment in the episode that breaks my heart. I get that it should be Clara/Danny, I get that Missy is wrong and evil, but... she’s *trying*. And getting it horribly wrong, granted, but...
Oh it is the most gorgeous moment. It's what Ten say, over and over, but the Master is too busy. But now... I think it's at the very heart of everything. Ten/Master was all over slash, but Twelve/Missy is about friendship. Damn, now I want to get out The Four Loves and quote enormous chunks... (I posted the main parts here. And now I am all verklempt again. Because in some ways the shippy aspects overshadows the main truth of the Doctor and the Master. Just look at the kiss. It's the same joyous kiss that Eleven would plant on Rory. It's not the kiss that's important, but the sentiment behind it.)
- But I would never have thought of juxtaposing it with this moment, and now that you have, as is usual with your meta, it is so completely self-evident. Perfect.
It was a late addition, when yet another moment slotted together perfectly. :)
- Again, of course! But I didn’t see it...
EVERYONE GETS MONSTER'D! (And I think Danny had to be monster'd. Especially if he's coming back.)
- Is simply in awe at this point...
♥
- Still not all the way on this one, but as you say, if she is, I wouldn’t be surprised either.
I don't think that's where we're going. BUT. It bothers me. *pokes*
- Entirely your fault that I re-downloaded “The Long Game” from iTunes to re-watch the point at the end where Adam (now with the chip in his forehead) is begging Nine to take him away and he says “I only take the best. I’ve got Rose.”
That's sort of problematic in itself? I prefer 'I choose my friends with great care'.
- More mirrors. You know, the people who say that Steven Moffat only writes one female character over and over again, while obviously completely wrong, are so very close to something wonderfully right that they are never going to see that it’s a little mind-blowing.
Yup. Poor things.
- And there I had been, hoping with the people who hoped that Clara was already pregnant, so the future Orson Pink timeline was still there. But of course it makes so much more sense that she isn’t, and it isn’t. Unfortunately.
Well she COULD be. Or Danny could return. Or... something else.
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... pets Ten, who I think must have misunderstood C. S. Lewis on this point.
The typical expression of opening Friendship would be something like, 'What? You too? I thought I was the only one.'
... from a slightly different though still Oxonian shared context: “And if you can quote Kai Lung, we should certainly get on together.”
not that help will be given when the pinch comes (of course it will) but that, having been given, it makes no difference at all.
... “it makes no difference at all.” “I forgive you.” Oh, Ten. You got it so terribly, terribly wrong.
Verklempt, indeed.
Makes mental note to re-read The Four Loves at the earliest available opportunity. Which will not be this evening, unfortunately.
Agree that Nine’s line is more problematic, and that your emendation is what Eleven or Twelve would have said at that point. “Clara Oswald. Your assistant?” “My friend.”
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Heeeee.
... from a slightly different though still Oxonian shared context: “And if you can quote Kai Lung, we should certainly get on together.”
Oh yes, excellent.
... “it makes no difference at all.” “I forgive you.” Oh, Ten. You got it so terribly, terribly wrong.
Verklempt, indeed.
It's a masterpiece in getting it wrong. Although I, too, want to re-read The Four Loves now. I think maybe the thing is that Ten swapped Friendship-love for Eros-love (Eros love being completely singleminded and ready to do anything to be with the beloved). So Ten/Master really *was* a love story, and Twelve/Missy has returned it to its proper place. (I wrote a crack theory once about how they might originally have fallen out... *g*)
Agree that Nine’s line is more problematic, and that your emendation is what Eleven or Twelve would have said at that point. “Clara Oswald. Your assistant?” “My friend.”
Someone, somewhere, called out Nine on that line. But I presume RTD chose that phrasing in order to make Adam feel how much he'd messed up.
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