Comments | elisi: Thinking aloud with pictures...

elisi

Thinking aloud with pictures...

Sep 08, 2011 12:52

Because we are watching one long, continuous story, and it's timey-wimey and told backwards, but also hugely dependent on what came before (i.e. Ten).

( Spoilers up to LKH, just to be on the safe side )

ten is meta catnip, whoniversal meta, eleven

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elisi September 8 2011, 13:54:09 UTC

The thing is, I don't know how things are going to be fixed. I mean... River could rewrite time, she's a Tiemlord too, she'd know how and all that - except River is by far the most mature, and the one who very deliberately says 'No, we can't do that', the one who will do as the Doctor tells them, because she knows that it's important. So for now, the importance of them being there, for now, for me, lies in a) the fact that he's not alone, and b) in his apology, since we now know how massively he screwed them all up. (I mean, they're OK, but still. Stolen babies turned into weapons. Not good.)

As for Ganger!Doctor then... Hm. I suspect the switch was mostly for Amy's benefit (wanting to teach her - and Rory - a lesson about how a Ganger could be a person through and through, which they'd need to know), and also - from a story perspective - to clue the Doctor onto the fact that he was going to die. The thing about Ganger!Doctor is that he can't regenerate, and much as I adore Matt Smith and want him to stay on FOREVER I can't imagine he will...

Somewhere there is something that DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!

bendingwind September 8 2011, 15:05:22 UTC

Interesting that you should bring up the ganger Doctor's inability to regenerate (sorry for butting in here), because, well:

Doctor: OK, so, basically better regenerate, that's what you're saying?

Interface!Amelia: Regeneration disabled. You will be dead in 32 minutes.

We've also got the Doctor showing up in a new coat, rather similar to how the ganger!Doctor and the Doctor distinguished themselves via shoes earlier.

I'm still not 100% exactly who is who and what's going on where, but I think we're seeing some sort of bait-and-switch occur. The ganger is poisoned and then goes to die on the beach (?).

elisi September 8 2011, 15:26:10 UTC

The ganger is poisoned and then goes to die on the beach (?).
*shakes head firmly* Two reasons. 1) The Doctor on the beach is killed in the middle of regeneration, so it can't be the Ganger. 2) The Doctor on the beach is very clearly the one who has been through AGMGTW/LKH. Plus, you know, if it's Ganger!Doctor the whole thing is pointless. (I, uh, might have strong feelings about this... It's be like watching The Gift, and then discovering that it was BuffyBot who sacrificed herself.)

Anyway, there is SOMETHING going on, what with all the mirrors and everything. *pokes show and all the metaphors*

bendingwind September 8 2011, 15:39:53 UTC

The Doctor on the beach is killed in the middle of regeneration, so it can't be the Ganger.

Er, yes. Good point.

I actually do still think we're seeing ganger!Doctor in LKH, though (not AGMGtW), and I do still think that they switch out somehow at some point. I am just not 100% sure how/when that happens. It does lend weight to the theories that the ganger!Doctor is the one in the suit, as well, and the entire thing is engineered (with River?) to trick his enemies into thinking he has died.

ARGH I JUST WANT TO KNOW THESE THINGS ALREADY. XD

elisi September 8 2011, 15:43:29 UTC

the entire thing is engineered (with River?) to trick his enemies into thinking he has died.
I can almost see it, except it doesn't fix anything.

bendingwind September 8 2011, 15:47:12 UTC

My general thought is that it allows River's use of her regenerations to revive real!Doctor after his death at the lake. Or something like that.

It's not a complete theory I'll admit, just where I think things are moving.

elisi September 8 2011, 15:48:55 UTC

My general thought is that it allows River's use of her regenerations to revive real!Doctor after his death at the lake. Or something like that.
But she can't, because she used them all up. And also they cremated him. I think the solution will be something far bigger and more fundamental, like re-writing time or... SOMETHING. /o\

bendingwind September 8 2011, 15:53:03 UTC

It's probably ALL THE THINGS. XD

I can totally see Moffat having them switch out Doctors and rewrite time AND reboot the universe (again), and still have time for tea.

elisi September 8 2011, 16:02:10 UTC

Totally.

promethia_tenk September 8 2011, 16:37:10 UTC

PRETTY MUCH THIS. "All the things" seems to be the answer on this show.

promethia_tenk September 8 2011, 15:34:16 UTC

The thing about Ganger!Doctor is that he can't regenerate
People keep claiming this like it's a confirmed thing, but I see no reason why not.

elisi September 8 2011, 15:38:24 UTC

Because then Kovatian wouldn't have needed to manipulate and steal a real baby, she could just have nicked a flesh copy. Plus Ganger!Doctor turned to goo...

promethia_tenk September 8 2011, 16:35:04 UTC

Well, but they'd still have had to get their hands on the baby in order to make that copy, at which point might as well just keep the original instead. Plus they seem to want to rub what they're doing in the Doctor's face, so no sense in being so secret. And on the goo, well, Time Lords aren't Jack--they do need to maintain a certain amount of bodily integrity in order to regenerate. You try coming back from a pile of goo.

Plus they gave River the ability to regenerate on the basis of some pretty flimsy handwaving--it's not like regeneration is being treated like some impossibly special and unreproduceable trait.

Basically, I don't have a problem with the idea that a ganger!Doctor couldn't regenerate, but I'm not ruling anything out on the basis of that assumption either.

elisi September 8 2011, 16:38:05 UTC

You try coming back from a pile of goo.
That... is kinda my point. Ganger!Doctor turned into a pile of goo on screen. And was then buried on an island brimming with acid. Never say never, I know, but really there would have to be A LOT of handwaving to get him back...

promethia_tenk September 8 2011, 16:48:14 UTC

Ah, I thought you meant him turning into goo was a sign that he'd never been able to regenerate. Like "Time Lords regenerate, gangers return to the ooze."

I agree, though, it would take some work to bring ganger!Doctor back (though they did explicitly leave that possibility open on the show). Hasn't seemed to have stopped half of fandom from assuming he'll be back anyway, and really I wouldn't be that surprised if he did come back for some purpose or other.

All of this is mute, though, because we agree that him dying in the Doctor's place would be a cheat.

elisi September 8 2011, 16:55:50 UTC

Ah, I thought you meant him turning into goo was a sign that he'd never been able to regenerate. Like "Time Lords regenerate, gangers return to the ooze."
Well that too. I just think it'd be a far-too-easy way of making new Timelords. I mean, why not make a ganger of River, and then she and the Doctor could happily frolick about after real!River is dead, and regenerate lots more? Heck, then we're back to 'I can use my regeneration energy to get my love back...'

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