Doctor/River meta: Destiny and free will - how exactly does it all work?
Note: This is not a ‘religious’ post, even though I start off with a big chunk of theology. I am just playing with ideas that interest me. :) (No spoilers in the post, but beware the comments!)
( Thoughts on time and free will under here. )
( Thoughts on time and free will under here. )
Comments 21
I always loved this idea, and it makes an awful lot of sense to me.
I love that idea too! Though this is the first time I've seen that quote. ::shame::
Okay. I've found it hard to be invested in Doctor/River precisely because of this feeling of ~DESTINY TRUE LOVE~ (even though they are so not juvenile like that), but this post has put it in perspective for me. Yay!
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*beams brightly*
I love that idea too! Though this is the first time I've seen that quote. ::shame::
You have not read Mere Christianity? Ooooh you should. It's FULL of SHINY THOUGHTS. His greatest talent is to put complex ideas into straightforward language, and he tackles all kinds of ideas in that book. I <3 it liek whoa! :) (One day I shall write a post about my faith, but I've yet to work out how.)
Okay. I've found it hard to be invested in Doctor/River precisely because of this feeling of ~DESTINY TRUE LOVE~ (even though they are so not juvenile like that), but this post has put it in perspective for me. Yay!\o/ \o/ \o/ I adore them to *pieces* (for about a million different reasons), but since I am not a fan of things that are 'destined to be' I found their relationship to be especially interesting, because it clearly *is* destined, and yet it wasn't pinging any of my 'Not My Cup of Tea' buttons. (Buffy/Angel - very sweet, not my thing. Doctor/Rose - lovely, but not my thing...) I wondered why that was, ( ... )
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Going on the reading list. I'm not religious, but theology is awesome, and C.S. Lewis is awesome. *nod*
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Um, but. I'd say that this is why they're both so very, very careful with spoilers, and where the whole thing tilts slightly into the realm of [self fulfilling] prophecies. One thing I've noticed about the spoilers that *do* slip through is, that (apart from River telling the Doctor about when he gave her his screwdriver) they're only about situations ("That's when everything changes." "We'll meet when the Pandorica Opens.") - there are no specific details, nothing to particularly influence the other. Plus, they're both inveterate liars...
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Little to add because I think you hit the nail on the head :-)
Your C.S. Lewis quote--I think I came across the exact same idea in a Medieval lit class once. You wouldn't think 12th century religious scholars would have such a good grasp of fifth-dimensional thinking, but there it was.
(Anyone else out there love theology?)
For an atheist, I'm practically obsessive.
Love the comparison to Spike/Buffy. I mean, I don't know anything about them, but as you say, that seems to fit perfectly.
I'm always a bit confused when other people are bothered by time loops. Like, I hear the concerns about predestination and "which came first?" but . . . I dunno, it all fits together. Like two people on a see-saw. Either one can move up or down their half, maybe add more weight, and inevitably it affects the other end. But the person on the other end is still free to act in turn and the system as a whole continually balances itself out.
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Doesn't it just? Mmmm, timey-wimey.
Little to add because I think you hit the nail on the head :-)
Well that's a compliment and a half! Thank you! :)
Your C.S. Lewis quote--I think I came across the exact same idea in a Medieval lit class once. You wouldn't think 12th century religious scholars would have such a good grasp of fifth-dimensional thinking, but there it was.
Oh I wouldn't be surprised, there were a LOT of great thinkers around since forever. (C.S.Lewis certainly doesn't claim the idea as his own, he just uses it as an example.)
For an atheist, I'm practically obsessive.
Why does that not surprise me? ;)
Love the comparison to Spike/Buffy. I mean, I don't know anything about them, but as you say, that seems to fit perfectly.They were my first proper 'ship, and I think they imprinted on me. (Well my very first ship was probably Peter Wimsey/Harriet, but you know - same dynamic.) And (since I know most of Anna's posts off by heart since ( ... )
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You're most welcome.
Oh I wouldn't be surprised, there were a LOT of great thinkers around since forever. (C.S.Lewis certainly doesn't claim the idea as his own, he just uses it as an example.)
Just goes to show, I guess, that the human brain has been wired in the same way for a very long time. I rather like Medieval lit as proof of the basic continuity of human nature: mostly sex and violence, big helpings of religious and political fundamentalism, occasional moments of transcendence, and every once in a long while, a little prototypical Relativity Theory. Mmmmm.
Why does that not surprise me? ;)
Heh. One of my friends is getting a Masters in Theology out at Berkeley. I'm rather tempted to join her.
They were my first proper 'ship, and I think they imprinted on me. (Well my very first ship was probably Peter Wimsey/Harriet, but you know - same dynamic.)Mine was Princess Leia and Han Solo. I liked the banter and, I presume, the equality, although my twelve year old mind would ( ... )
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*grins* People are people are people. I think that's one of the things I like especially about Doctor Who - wherever they go, people are just people. I think that's a very important message.
Heh. One of my friends is getting a Masters in Theology out at Berkeley. I'm rather tempted to join her.
::tries not to be jealous::
Yes! Nothing to stop one person or the other from hopping off their end of the see-saw and sending the whole system crashing down, but you usually try not to do that to people you like.
Heh. Yes rather.
Mine was Princess Leia and Han Solo. I liked the banter and, I presume, the equality, although my twelve year old mind would probably not have quite formulated it that way.
I think twelve year olds are quite smart, and know what they like. :)
( ... )
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Also it's nice when I think something must work a way and then a CS Lewis quote agrees. It makes me feel smart. :) I ought to read that thing it's from.
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Hello and welcome! :)
I just wanted to say that I love how you put things.
Thank you! It's been going in circles in my head for a while now, so I'm glad it makes sense.
This is pretty much my take on how they work, too -- it's not that they don't have a choice, it's that we (and sometimes they) know what that choice will be.
*nods* Also, they know each other very well, and trust each other to make those choices, which I love.
And I mean, if any two people could get away with changing the future to avoid an unwanted relationship, you'd think it'd be the Doctor and River, right?
Word! (This is one of the reasons I ship them so much - they're more or less equals, especially when it comes to time travel. River, just as much as the Doctor, could re-write time.
Also it's nice when I think something must work a way and then a CS Lewis quote agrees. It makes me feel smart. :)
*laughs* Oh I know that feeling!
I ought to read that thing it's from.'Tis brilliant indeed - I've just started re-reading ( ... )
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