Comments | elisi: Behold! I have discovered where the idea for s8 came from!

elisi

Behold! I have discovered where the idea for s8 came from!

Jul 17, 2010 19:29

Via this page of Joss Whedon quotes:

It’s better to be a spy in the house of love, you know ? . . . If I made ‘Buffy the Lesbian Separatist,’ a series of lectures on PBS on why there should be feminism, no one would be coming to the party, and it would be boring. The idea of changing culture is important to me, and it can only be done in a popular ( Read more... )

(i was paid to read) s8, joss, piiimp!, ex-member of the church of joss

Comments 26

rm July 17 2010, 18:32:36 UTC

I don't really have a lot of bandwidth for the dude telling us how to do feminism.

elisi July 17 2010, 18:37:17 UTC

Me neither. Buffy the show, on the whole, does pretty well (and hurrah for having a female hero), but otherwise he's not doing that great. And the comics? Don't get me started.

rm July 17 2010, 18:38:40 UTC

I'm not that far yet (we've not finished the series, Petty gets home tonight, so soon), but I find it all very troubling. The show does good, especially for when it was created, but it's not perfect (talking about rape: good; obsessing about rape: creepy, fetishizing and reductive) and Whedon spends too much time wanting a cookie.

elisi July 17 2010, 18:41:34 UTC

That's a pretty good summary, to be honest. I find that the positives outweigh the negatives (and you know, adore Buffy to tiny pieces), but Joss' issues certainly make themselves known.

Thread 14

infinitewhale July 17 2010, 19:36:12 UTC

After his latest work, Whedon really does need to keep his face shut about the topic of feminism. He's either uninformed about what it actually means or his ego is so big he actually thinks he's above the details and he feels he can shape it.

Or both.

His own issues, IMO, cloud his work too much.

elisi July 17 2010, 20:24:43 UTC

Word. To everything.

He's a good writer, he just really needs boundaries and people to check everything.

eilowyn July 17 2010, 22:06:06 UTC

Little late to the party . . .

On top of his issues with rape and dubcon, there's another side of the coin: the constant reminder that sex is bad, or at least leads to bad things, and the complete lack of long-term, happy relationships. Zoe and Wash used to stand as the sole romantic relationship in the entire Whedonverse that lasted longer than a season or two, but like all Jossian relationships, that, too, ended in tears. The concept of a happy marriage seems absolutely foreign to him (the example of happy marriage I know penny_lane_42 often uses is President and Mrs. Bartlet from The West Wing; I don't know if that show was very big in England, though), and someone doing biographical criticism could surmise that the divorce of his own parents was the root of this.

Don't really want to speculate on the root of his rape fetish.

elisi July 17 2010, 22:26:06 UTC

No worries, I'm perpetually late to everything these days...

On top of his issues with rape and dubcon, there's another side of the coin: the constant reminder that sex is bad, or at least leads to bad things, and the complete lack of long-term, happy relationships.
That's a very good point. I don't have much to add (it's late, I'm half asleep), although Fred's parents were happy and well adjusted - which is, as you say, a huge anomaly. I've not seen much of The West Wing unfortunately, but I remember the Bartletts are being wonderful and interesting in that way that long term couples are.

Don't really want to speculate on the root of his rape fetish.
Me neither.

angearia July 17 2010, 22:32:10 UTC

Yeah, I think nobody wants to speculate on that. Which is why it becomes very disturbing that it's so prevalent in all his works.

elisi July 18 2010, 11:42:01 UTC

Someone should have a word - except he probably thinks it's edgy or something? *sigh*

zanthinegirl July 18 2010, 00:43:13 UTC

Suddenly it all makes sooo much sense.

I'd probably have preferred the lectures too. I can't tell you how much I like the idea of Joss being interviewed on PBS.

I have occasionally thought that part of why I much prefer Buffy, the series to Buffy, the comic is that the network provided a check to the worst of his crazyness and/or bad ideas...

elisi July 18 2010, 11:43:32 UTC

Suddenly it all makes sooo much sense.
Doesn't it just? Hmmm, comic books, what should I do? Oh yes, that idea, that'd work nicely!

I'd probably have preferred the lectures too. I can't tell you how much I like the idea of Joss being interviewed on PBS.
*g*

I have occasionally thought that part of why I much prefer Buffy, the series to Buffy, the comic is that the network provided a check to the worst of his crazyness and/or bad ideas...
Word. Also the comics are crap. But that's something else....

aerintine July 18 2010, 02:24:41 UTC

If I made ‘Buffy the Lesbian Separatist,’ a series of lectures on PBS on why there should be feminism, no one would be coming to the party, and it would be boring.

I can't quite pin down why this statement bugs me so much, but it does. Was Joss equating feminist thought with stereotypical slurs against queers? Does he think he has the answer as to why feminism is important? He really thinks he's the one in the know who can show us all? I am befuddled at that level of hubris. It doesn't even seem like he was aware of the privileged way he was speaking. It's a snarky statement, to be sure, but with snark always comes underlying belief. Again, I can't quite pin it down, but I am officially bugged ( ... )

elisi July 18 2010, 12:46:44 UTC

Does he think he has the answer as to why feminism is important? He really thinks he's the one in the know who can show us all? I am befuddled at that level of hubris. It doesn't even seem like he was aware of the privileged way he was speaking.
This. It's hard to pin down, but I think it's something like 'Look I'm cleverly using my privilege to put a message across, so that makes me one you, right? Cookie please!' Or maybe it's that because he labels himself 'feminist' he assumes that what he produces will automatically become feminist?

I dunno. It's giving me a headache.

It only makes the gaping misogyny in S8 more irritating. If this is Joss' version of mansplaining feminist ideals, he can take his 'Yay, Feminism!' lecture and shove it.
*nods a LOT*

That vid is haunting and sad. I wish there were more of BtVS and AtS in it - of the shadowmen chaining Buffy to the earth, of Giles controlling her power during the cruciamentum, of D'hoffryn and Anya/Halfrek, of Cordy's destruction at Skip's hands, etc.That would be great. (And now ( ... )

aerintine July 18 2010, 13:59:15 UTC

And now I'm going to go and watch 'Bachelorette' I think...

OH! I immediately thought of 'Bachelorette' when watching that vid! We are of like mind. *high fives*

Actually Dru and Fred would have fitted in better than Buffy - they have that fragile, childlike, (sometime) insanity thing going on too. Also, of course, they're brunettes... Exactly this. You are right on. They would fit perfectly with River and Echo. Dark-haired women who appear physically frail and have been tortured in some way, but are ultimately strong willed, yet get crushed anyways. What IS that with Joss' work? I mean, jeez!

elisi July 18 2010, 14:17:29 UTC

OH! I immediately thought of 'Bachelorette' when watching that vid! We are of like mind. *high fives*
*grins* Love that vid. (And the fact that Buffy - despite all the problems - overcomes and *works* as a feminist show. Not counting the comics, obviously.)

Dark-haired women who appear physically frail and have been tortured in some way, but are ultimately strong willed, yet get crushed anyways. What IS that with Joss' work? I mean, jeez!
The man has a type. It's... quite disturbing, really.