One fan's perspective... (no spoilers)

[elisi]

So, what with the Amy wank/kerfuffle/thing and the apparent split through fandom into RTD and Moff factions (where all the Old!Who fans are sitting back and going 'Been there, done that, got the T-shirt 30 years ago!'), I've been thinking, and have almost written out the following in the response to a dozen different posts. Instead I thought I'd

Comments

[enigmaticblues]

Can I just ask: what the heck is going on? And I mean that in the most respectful and curious way, because I have seen no fewer than...five? six? essays in the last week about fandom hating on female characters. Hating on Amy Pond appears to be just the latest round, but I just can't comprehend it. I mean, I don't watch DW, but there are other shows I do watch where this seems to be true, and while I'll catch rumblings, I seem to miss the wank.

[elisi]

This is Amy. She is very pretty, has legs to die for (and likes to show them off), can be quite difficult (argumentative) and generally very confident. Some women (sadly) think that these are good reasons to hate her, and there were quite a few 'I'm not going to bash Amy...' posts, which of course did exactly that. (Yes there's an interesting discussion to be had about women's clothes and the male gaze and society's notions of beauty etc etc, but that's not the one that's happening. Meh.)

[enigmaticblues]

You know, from what I've seen, a lot of female characters get criticized on their looks. If it's not their dress, it's their hair, their demeanor, the way they speak, that they're too forceful, not forceful enough, and so on. It's just like how women get criticized in real life.

[elisi]

It's just like how women get criticized in real life.
*nods* Depressing. Hopefully things will keep changing, slowly, but surely.

[kathyh]

I dunno. I just love my show. If it's got strong, well written women (who don't end up dead) fantastic. If it doesn't kill off all the POC (maybe even gives them good stories) - even better. If it also has gay people - better still. But they're... additional bonuses, and I don't necessarily expect them. Which I guess means that either I'm deeply cynical or a complete Pollyanna. Or a bit of both. :)

LOL! That would be me too, which is why I quoted this entire thing. In fact I agree with everything you say. It would be wonderful if everything ticked every box but nothing in life can do that and I don't expect my shows to be perfect. I'm just grateful that people battle through all the problems of TV production, which are huge, to give us stories that we can be so involved in.

[elisi]

LOL! That would be me too, which is why I quoted this entire thing. In fact I agree with everything you say.
Oooh, I knew there was a reason I liked you! ;)

I'm just grateful that people battle through all the problems of TV production, which are huge, to give us stories that we can be so involved in.
*nods* Let's hope that as time goes on, our shows will tick more and more boxes. :)

[woman_of_]

Ummm! The worse critics of women are other women. We are our own worse enemy. We make the whole dynamic of making strong female characters so difficult

[elisi]

Ummm! The worse critics of women are other women. We are our own worse enemy. We make the whole dynamic of making strong female characters so difficult.
Ooooh yes. Which is what's so depressing.

I prefer the DW and TW females to the Buffy!Verse ones myself. Mainly because they are not supercharged in any way.
That's a good point. And maybe that's why I love S6 so much, because the battles Buffy faces aren't ones she can win using her superpowers, it's about a different kind of strength.

To be honest, the only critism I would have with RTD was he was a little too shippy for my tastes. Especially with The Doctor.
Yeah, I know what you mean. The whole soulmates thing with Rose was... awkward. I mean I like Rose, I'm just not a fan of those kinds of love stories. Also, I see the Doctor as asexual (except for that one time with Elizabeth I because it's hilarious, and he was not quite himself), so UST does very little for me. (Except for the Master, of course! *g*)

Maybe we shouldn't be so hyper sensitive and hyper critical, but pleased

[flake_sake]

I'm only casually fanning Doctor Who, so I missed all the wank (and am glad for it).

I tend to think that the vast vast majority of tv writing is deeply flawed were women are concerned. Doctor Who is no exception there. That's not to say that I don't like the female characters there, because I adore them both old and new (and I love Amy), but they don't give me a feminist squee the way Mad men does,or BSG/Caprica.

So ultimately I'm glad for every step into progressiveness they're making but Doctor Who is a male show for me and while they and especially Torchwood did great things to incorporate gay folks into genre tv, they are not doing anything special for women, just going with flow. I'm ok with that, but I'll use the word feminism again when we get a female Doctor.

[elisi]

I'm only casually fanning Doctor Who, so I missed all the wank (and am glad for it).
I've only caught snippets, and... be glad you missed it!

I tend to think that the vast vast majority of tv writing is deeply flawed were women are concerned. Doctor Who is no exception there.
We need more women writers!!!

I'm ok with that, but I'll use the word feminism again when we get a female Doctor.
Yeah, that'll never happen. But if we're lucky they'll bring back Romana one day. And until then I'm going to fangirl River. *g*

[rahirah]

I was with you up to this point: I just love my show. If it's got strong, well written women (who don't end up dead) fantastic. If it doesn't kill off all the POC (maybe even gives them good stories) - even better. If it also has gay people - better still. But they're... additional bonuses, and I don't necessarily expect them.

I don't think these things should be optional extras. Yes, I have loved shows that don't have them. But saying that if shows mainly focus on straight white cis males, that's OK, it's just the way things are, and I'm not going to press for anything more - then shows with good female or POC or queer character will remain the exception to the rule.

And that rule sucks. It is an issue that applies to me personally, but I hope to heck that even if it didn't, I'd work towards making things better anyway, for the sake of the people whom it did apply to.

[elisi]

I don't think these things should be optional extras.
I don't think so either. I think TV is way to white and male and that we should definitely do everything we can to change that. But Doctor Who is sadly not a show about female empowerment, so I'm not surprised that the (male) producers don't think of it in those terms.

There's also sad cases like the new UK show Luther, which features a black detective in the lead role. It's also extremely violent and misogynistic. So... I don't watch it. It's like their brains can only cope with one issue at a time, and if they get one right, all the others get thrown overboard.

And I didn't mean to come across as somehow accepting of the status quo (although, looking at it, that's a very obvious reading, and I should have phrased that better). It's like... the fact that I hate Fred's death (for a million and one reasons), and yet adore Illyria.