The problem with 'As You Were'.

[elisi]

Thanks to AOQ's reviews, I've been spending yet more time thinking about AYW. Because One Bit Shy (whom I usually agree with at least 95%), had a completely different take: Riley was Prince Charming, giving Buffy a wonderful boost and helping her enormously. Which kinda threw me, as you can expect. So I thought and pondered, and this is what I came

Comments

[aycheb]

I have problems with the writing in AYW but they’re mostly that listening to Riley do exposition is very, very boring. Skip over the Summer’s house scene and the rest makes just as much sense. It reads a little as if you’re having a problem with wanting there to be a bad guy and wanting it not to be Spike. But I think the main reason Buffy finds the strength to break up with Spike after Riley leaves is not that he’s her Prince Charming showing up how bad Spike is. She already knowshe’s not good, she just thinks he’s too incompetent to be a threat. I mean the nearest he got to an evil scheme post-chip was the deal with Adam and if Spike hadn’t been involved Buffy wouldn’t have worked out what Adam was up to nearly as quick. And when he tried to get his chip back he got fooled by a doctor with some spare change. The thing Riley does though is to remind her how she used to be better than this. She is being selfish using Spike just because he’s convenient. It’s not working she can’t love him until she gets herself back on track. Finds her

[elisi]

I have problems with the writing in AYW but they’re mostly that listening to Riley do exposition is very, very boring.
Hee! :)

I think that realisation that she can be strong again would be cheapened if we were supposed to see Riley as merely manipulative.
Hmmm... well I *do* think she comes to that realisation by herself. Riley might try to manipulate, but he knows nothing about what Buffy's been through or why she's sleeping with Spike.

My problem, really, is that I'm not sure what Riley is supposed to be, and the ep. gives me no clue. He's either dull and nice or interesting and a bit manipulative. In either case his effect on Buffy is the same, so it just annoys me that I can't tell.

And Doublemeat Palace is a complex masterpiece of political subtext :-)
Yay for DMP!

[speakr2customrs]

Riley can never be "dull and nice". His actions in sleeping with Buffy when he was a TA who actually graded her papers prove that. He either isn't nice, or he's so deeply stupid that 'dull' would only be applicable in the sense of 'educationally subnormal'. If he's supposed to be intelligent enough to pass as a graduate student then he can't be totally dumb, so that means that he must have a total blind spot where morals and ethics are concerned.

Was it ever stated flat out on the show that Riley has a soul? Because he seems to be a prime candidate for being soulless in the Buffyverse sense. Deadly... amoral... opportunistic. When Riley says that about Spike he's really talking about himself.

Of course Buffy, nice girl, not too bright. It never occurs to her that the correct method of reacting to Riley is to insist that Willow follows through on her promise to beat him to death with a shovel.

[elisi]

Heee! The way I responded to OBS was actually something like:

Riley was never Prince Charming. He was just this guy who dated Cinderella, then cheated on her with one of the ugly step sisters and left town.

:)

[petzipellepingo]

Personally I prefer not to waste precious brain cells over Riley Finn but this discussion seems like it would be a wonderful question to put to JE at the James Marsters Con or whatever it's called. At least from her you have a good chance of getting a straight answer.

[elisi]

Ah yes, that would be a near-perfect solution...

[sp23]

jonesiexxx made a brilliant post regarding AYW at Tea at the Ford which actually explains the entire episode as filtered through Buffy's psyche. It still hate the episode, but if I ever watch it again, I going to do so through with this analysis in mind. If you haven't yet read this, I highly recommend it.

[elisi]

Oh I've read that one. It's excellent and helps a lot. If you want to look at from a different perspective, I'd recommend this post by theohara. It explains *perfectly* why everything goes the way it does.

[ladycat713]

re: Riley grading Buffy's papers while sleeping with her. I posted a plot bunny or two on waywardbunnies about someone running across Buffy talking to Riley in AYW and mentioning that they remembered them because Buffy was sleeping her way to good grades or asking what thye were doing together now that she doesn't have to sleep her way to a good grade. Then have Buffy see the sleaziness of her being with Riley in a new light and realizing that he isn't bastion of virtue that she's held him up as and she really should question things about his visit like him knowing where she worked.

[elisi]

re: Riley grading Buffy's papers while sleeping with her.
You know, that particular point had never occurred to me before. We don't know that he did, after they started seeing each other - it's quite possible that Walsh (noting his interest), made someone else grade the papers.

I have problems with Riley, but I never saw him as amoral particularly - flirting with the dark side in S5, yes, blind spots the size of Iowa, yes, but not amoral.

[azdak]

The one thing we know is that the show didn't make an issue of it - if they wanted to show Riley as less All-American Hero than he appeared to be, they would have shown us him grading one of Buffy's papers. Since they didn't, any speculation is purely that, speculation. It's just as possible that he went and asked Prof Welsh to excuse him from grading Buffy's papers on the grounds of conflicts of interest. But since we never saw him garding any papers at all, or indeed doing anything academic, I think it's fair to say that ME was not interested in his cover, except insofar as it enabled Buffy to meet him.

Anyway, there are circumstances when I think it's perfectly okay for a TA to sleep with a student, no matter what official policy is. Of course the legislators can't take that into account, but in individual cases it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[owenthurman]

I've never seen an institution where it would matter whether he was grading her papers himself. He's the TA and she's a student in a class. Even if she were in a sepatate section, he'd be fired with a bad recommendation on file for his next appointment the minute the administration knew.

[makd]

Interesting interpretation of one of my least favorite episodes. I like the way your mind works, and I totally agree with you. (Except for Petrie. Petrie - like all the writers - submitted the final draft to MN and JW, and if they disliked anything, they'd change it. I rest my blame on them.)

[elisi]

Thank you - my mind does funny things, I'm glad when it makes sense. :)

I rest my blame on them.
I think Petrie drugged them. *g*