(no subject)
Was reading through some posts elsenet about dealing with Creepy Guys- and all of the information and advice given was spot on... but I noticed something in some of the posts that bugged me.
See, there was quite a few ladies who said "OMG yeah, we had this guy who was such a slimeball/creep/pervert..." and then they'd go on to describe a guy who would offer/ask for physical contact, and stop when told no. Often they'd say how said guy would offer to someone else- and that someone might say yes. And the write would express confusion that someone would 'seem' to be enjoying contact with the guy.
And that's where it bugged me. Here are people who are stating a physical request openly, and taking no as an answer, but because they make the offer to multiple people, or ask more than once on different occasions, they're a creepy pervert. Even if they take no, even if they don't complain and whine about your no, they're a creep. And if (like someone did) you spoke up and say you don't find that creepy, you got jumped on. Called a rape apologist, enabler, told you are invalidating the victim's feelings, and so on.
I keep seeing things like this around, and it is really starting to get to me. Like the essay someone linked to a while back that said that if you've ever 'persuaded' your chosen partner to have sex by snuggling them or nibbling them or whatever when they've not really been in the mood- then you are guilty of assaulting them, violating their boundaries, forcing them into coercive sex. I've even seen it called 'soft rape'(like there's degrees of rape or somesuch, the same people get pissed at 'rape'-rape ...). I dunno about the rest of you, but there's been times when I'm kinda 'eh' about sex, and a few well placed nibbles or whispered words gets me happily in the mood. The idea that I've somehow been coerced against my will is to laugh. Have I ever had sex when I didn't really want to? Yup. Did I feel horribly violated? Nope. I enjoy my partner's enjoyment, even when mine isn't percolating. I sit and watch movies I'm not really into, too.
I dunno where I'm going with this, really- other than the simple concept of no-means-no seems to have turned into this you-are-a-predator-if-you-can't-correctly-interpret-every-person-around-you's-non-verbal-communication rule instead, and I don't think that serves women or men very well.
It feels like a culture of absolutism is evolving- where openly expressing admiration for someone's physical traits is *always* offensive; asking for any level of physical contact makes you suspect (even as you are required to ask every time); physical intimacy will only be labeled non-coersive if you negotiate a written contract ahead of time, only the girl gets a clause to change or end the contract mid-stream, and the guy isn't even allowed to express a sense of sexual dissapointment, let alone any other emotions. Where every male is assumed to be a threat, and every woman is expected to act like they are.
See, there was quite a few ladies who said "OMG yeah, we had this guy who was such a slimeball/creep/pervert..." and then they'd go on to describe a guy who would offer/ask for physical contact, and stop when told no. Often they'd say how said guy would offer to someone else- and that someone might say yes. And the write would express confusion that someone would 'seem' to be enjoying contact with the guy.
And that's where it bugged me. Here are people who are stating a physical request openly, and taking no as an answer, but because they make the offer to multiple people, or ask more than once on different occasions, they're a creepy pervert. Even if they take no, even if they don't complain and whine about your no, they're a creep. And if (like someone did) you spoke up and say you don't find that creepy, you got jumped on. Called a rape apologist, enabler, told you are invalidating the victim's feelings, and so on.
I keep seeing things like this around, and it is really starting to get to me. Like the essay someone linked to a while back that said that if you've ever 'persuaded' your chosen partner to have sex by snuggling them or nibbling them or whatever when they've not really been in the mood- then you are guilty of assaulting them, violating their boundaries, forcing them into coercive sex. I've even seen it called 'soft rape'(like there's degrees of rape or somesuch, the same people get pissed at 'rape'-rape ...). I dunno about the rest of you, but there's been times when I'm kinda 'eh' about sex, and a few well placed nibbles or whispered words gets me happily in the mood. The idea that I've somehow been coerced against my will is to laugh. Have I ever had sex when I didn't really want to? Yup. Did I feel horribly violated? Nope. I enjoy my partner's enjoyment, even when mine isn't percolating. I sit and watch movies I'm not really into, too.
I dunno where I'm going with this, really- other than the simple concept of no-means-no seems to have turned into this you-are-a-predator-if-you-can't-correctly-interpret-every-person-around-you's-non-verbal-communication rule instead, and I don't think that serves women or men very well.
It feels like a culture of absolutism is evolving- where openly expressing admiration for someone's physical traits is *always* offensive; asking for any level of physical contact makes you suspect (even as you are required to ask every time); physical intimacy will only be labeled non-coersive if you negotiate a written contract ahead of time, only the girl gets a clause to change or end the contract mid-stream, and the guy isn't even allowed to express a sense of sexual dissapointment, let alone any other emotions. Where every male is assumed to be a threat, and every woman is expected to act like they are.