Ron wonders whether DD wanted them to interpret the symbol in time, proving being "worthy" to get the Hallows, which sadly makes sense in this universe, but is the opposite of what DD wanted.
What exactly *did* DD want?
We know that Dumbledore's plan was for the Elder Wand to lose its power:
"Aren't you listening? Snape never beat Dumbledore! Dumbledore's death was planned between them! Dumbledore intended to die, undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him!"
Or maybe it was for Snape to get the wand:
"If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder Wand, didn’t you?"
"I admit that was my intention," said Dumbledore, "but it did not work as I intended, did it?"
"No," said Harry. "That bit didn't work out."
Is there anything that clearly shows what Dumbledore's original plan was? In any case, it certainly wasn't for *Harry* to gain ownership of the wand.
The whole backbone of Deathly Hallows - that Dumbledore had set up a 'plan' for the Trio, with clues in Hermione's book of fairy tales about the Deathly Hallows - is a fatal error, since he had no time to change his will before he was killed by Snape on the tower. His plan was to die undefeated (or grant it to Snape); Snape killed him; end of story. So the trail of clues that Harry followed like a pet poodle in DH couldn't have been set up by Dumbledore in the first place; Dumbledore had no time to write a new will after Draco disarmed him and became the Elder Wand's new master. That's a critical flaw in the book that fails the whole novel.
But I'm getting confused about the whole chain of logic (if I'm allowed to use the word 'logic' in a post about DH) that Rowling wanted us to accept, putting aside the whole discontinuity behind Dumbledore's will as per the above. Can someone help lay things straight for me?
Dumbledore leaves the 'clue' to the Hallows in Hermione's book;
Krum tells Harry about the sign of the Hallows worn by Lovegood;
Harry gets occasional newsflashes over the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network from Voldemort, leading him to deduce that Riddle is after the Elder Wand;
In Kings Cross Dumbledore tells Harry that he deliberately made his 'Quest' for the Hallows difficult, trusting in Hermione to slow him down.
So there *was* a plan, a 'Quest', set out by Dumbledore - as he admitted in Kings Cross - but was the only clue that which he provided via the Bard's book to Hermione? Trusting that Harry would discover the rest - be told about the symbol by Krum, be led to Lovegood, accidentally and conveniently eavesdrop on Voldemort's every move via the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network - all by chance?
Was there anything more to it?
And what use was it, in the end? Dumbledore laid out the 'Quest' ... and in the end, after angsting over what he should do, Harry discards it and concentrates on the Horcruxes. It was only through dumb luck that he ended up 'master' of all three Hallows. Why would Dumbledore arrange a 'Quest', and plan for Hermione to 'slow Harry down' in fulfilling it, if in the end Harry abandoned the search?
The whole thing is such a shambles I no longer understand what Rowling wanted her readers to believe or see. Can anyone assist?
Planning for Severus to get the wand with its power would have been the most idiotic plan ever, because Voldemort could have become Master of the Elder Wand completely by chance, without even knowing it, simply by demanding that Severus surrender his wand (even his regular one) to him at any time over the course of the year. Which would have been even more likely if Severus were to carry and use Dumbledore's wand. Did Severus know not to do so? He wasn't told to keep the wand out of Voldemort's reach in any way.
The whole backbone of Deathly Hallows - that Dumbledore had set up a 'plan' for the Trio, with clues in Hermione's book of fairy tales about the Deathly Hallows - is a fatal error, since he had no time to change his will before he was killed by Snape on the tower. His plan was to die undefeated (or grant it to Snape); Snape killed him; end of story. So the trail of clues that Harry followed like a pet poodle in DH couldn't have been set up by Dumbledore in the first place; Dumbledore had no time to write a new will after Draco disarmed him and became the Elder Wand's new master. That's a critical flaw in the book that fails the whole novel.
Dumbledore knew Voldemort had Ollivander and knew Voldemort would want a solution to the brother-wand problem. So he could have suspected Voldemort might end up chasing the Elder Wand at some point. Even if the Wand was supposed to be powerless by then knowing what it was might have helped Harry understand what Voldemort was doing. But it was a stupid way to go about explaining things to Harry.
So there *was* a plan, a 'Quest', set out by Dumbledore - as he admitted in Kings Cross - but was the only clue that which he provided via the Bard's book to Hermione? Trusting that Harry would discover the rest - be told about the symbol by Krum, be led to Lovegood, accidentally and conveniently eavesdrop on Voldemort's every move via the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network - all by chance?
At the end of HBP Harry out of the blue decided he had to visit his parents' graves at Godric's Hollow. We know Ignotus Peverel's grave with the sign of the Hallows is there. And Bathilda was still alive when Albus died. So perhaps Dumbledore somehow planted the idea to go to Godric's Hollow in Harry's mind, though Rowling should have had him mention the place explicitly. But other than the mark in the book and Ignotus' grave and possibly something that might have come from Bathilda there were no clues Dumbledore could have reasonably expected to set Harry on this quest. Maybe Dumbledore expected Rita Skeeter to dig up the dirt from his early years. I suppose once Hermione had the connection between the mark in the storybook, the Peverells and Albus himself she was supposed to research it herself, maybe in the Black family library? or perhaps Bathilda knew one or more of the Questers? All she had to find out was that there were wizards who believed the Hallows were true artifacts and perhaps something about the history of the Deathstick. Because that's all Xeno told her that the book didn't.
Not that I think it makes any sense in the first place, from Dumbledore's POV before he went with Harry to the cave.
You've laid out the absurdity of the "quest" really well. I would only add a few things:
1) At the time Dumbledore left his clue, he already possessed two of the three objects and Harry possessed the third. He could have just left Harry the damn wand in the first place and Harry would have had all three items by the sixth chapter of DH.
2) Dumbledore had to leave that clue for Hermione to find because Harry was too stupid to realize it was a clue, had he even bothered to open the book that his beloved mentor left him. (Other books from Dumbledore that he never bothered to open: All the ones about Horcruxes and how to destroy them.)
3) Harry lost the stone before he got the wand and before the wand could have possibly recognized him as its "master." Therefore, he never was the Master of Death.
He could have just left Harry the damn wand in the first place and Harry would have had all three items by the sixth chapter of DH.
Harry wouldn't have been the 'master' of that wand, though (crazy though that sounds).
Other books from Dumbledore that he never bothered to open: All the ones about Horcruxes and how to destroy them.
Harry never even thought to acquire those books in the first place, or muse that they might exist! It was Hermione who - *cough*unbelievable*cough* - thought to poke her wand out of her dormitory window and say 'accio books to solve all of our problems please'.
Harry lost the stone before he got the wand and before the wand could have possibly recognized him as its "master." Therefore, he never was the Master of Death.
alternate scenariosoryx_leucoryxApril 20 2010, 06:32:56 UTC
Suppose the trio had decided to go to Godric's Hollow before the Ministry. After all, the same logic or lack thereof that led them to think the sword might be there applied all along. Even if they didn't know the sword was imbued with basilisk venom, they knew Dumbledore wanted Harry to have it. Hermione might have made the connection between the mark in the book and Ignotus Peverell's grave back in August. They could have spoken to Xeno all the way back then, while Luna was still at home and Xeno wasn't being threatened by DEs. And Harry already knew Voldemort was after Gregorovitch and remembered that the latter was a wandmaker. So Harry could have figured out at least part of the Hallows business months earlier. So what about the plan to slow down that search?
Re: alternate scenariosmadderbradApril 20 2010, 07:02:17 UTC
So what about the plan to slow down that search?
Plan? What 'plan'?
I do not think it means what Dumbledore thinks it means ... :-)
There was no 'plan', just crossed-fingers hopes and coincidences. And I still can't figure out what Rowling actually wanted her readers to think, it was all so jumbled. He wanted Harry to search for the Elder Wand ... he wanted Hermione to slow Harry down in his search for the Wand ... but in the end Harry deliberately decides to abandon the search anyway, and stick to the Hallows. Dumbledore's plan for Harry to acquire the Elder Wand *failed*. If that was his plan.
Harry only acquired the Wand later through pure luck and authorial fiat.
Re: alternate scenariosoryx_leucoryxApril 20 2010, 18:45:13 UTC
Harry only acquired the Wand later through pure luck and authorial fiat.
Not that there is any reason but Harry's imaginings to believe it mattered that he was the wand's master. Yes, it was important that Voldemort not master it. And I'm almost certain it was important that Voldemort believed he had done so. But beyond that it didn't matter who other than Voldemort had the mastery at the time of their confrontation.
The whole backbone of Deathly Hallows - that Dumbledore had set up a 'plan' for the Trio, with clues in Hermione's book of fairy tales about the Deathly Hallows - is a fatal error, since he had no time to change his will before he was killed by Snape on the tower.
Well, he could have updated the will when he sent Harry away to bring the invisibility cloak that was in his pocket all year long according to Dumbles' own instructions. Harry had just revealed to him that Draco had just had a breakthrough of some sort, so Albus could have figured he might not return to his office (at least not in 3 dimensional form) and made any changes he wanted to make. Perhaps that was when he decided to add the sword to the will - if originally he thought he'd be able to use it on the Horcrux but now thought this was not going to be likely.
What exactly *did* DD want?
We know that Dumbledore's plan was for the Elder Wand to lose its power:
"Aren't you listening? Snape never beat Dumbledore! Dumbledore's death was planned between them! Dumbledore intended to die, undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him!"
Or maybe it was for Snape to get the wand:
"If you planned your death with Snape, you meant him to end up with the Elder Wand, didn’t you?"
"I admit that was my intention," said Dumbledore, "but it did not work as I intended, did it?"
"No," said Harry. "That bit didn't work out."
Is there anything that clearly shows what Dumbledore's original plan was? In any case, it certainly wasn't for *Harry* to gain ownership of the wand.
The whole backbone of Deathly Hallows - that Dumbledore had set up a 'plan' for the Trio, with clues in Hermione's book of fairy tales about the Deathly Hallows - is a fatal error, since he had no time to change his will before he was killed by Snape on the tower. His plan was to die undefeated (or grant it to Snape); Snape killed him; end of story. So the trail of clues that Harry followed like a pet poodle in DH couldn't have been set up by Dumbledore in the first place; Dumbledore had no time to write a new will after Draco disarmed him and became the Elder Wand's new master. That's a critical flaw in the book that fails the whole novel.
But I'm getting confused about the whole chain of logic (if I'm allowed to use the word 'logic' in a post about DH) that Rowling wanted us to accept, putting aside the whole discontinuity behind Dumbledore's will as per the above. Can someone help lay things straight for me?
- Dumbledore leaves the 'clue' to the Hallows in Hermione's book;
- Krum tells Harry about the sign of the Hallows worn by Lovegood;
- Harry gets occasional newsflashes over the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network from Voldemort, leading him to deduce that Riddle is after the Elder Wand;
- In Kings Cross Dumbledore tells Harry that he deliberately made his 'Quest' for the Hallows difficult, trusting in Hermione to slow him down.
So there *was* a plan, a 'Quest', set out by Dumbledore - as he admitted in Kings Cross - but was the only clue that which he provided via the Bard's book to Hermione? Trusting that Harry would discover the rest - be told about the symbol by Krum, be led to Lovegood, accidentally and conveniently eavesdrop on Voldemort's every move via the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network - all by chance?Was there anything more to it?
And what use was it, in the end? Dumbledore laid out the 'Quest' ... and in the end, after angsting over what he should do, Harry discards it and concentrates on the Horcruxes. It was only through dumb luck that he ended up 'master' of all three Hallows. Why would Dumbledore arrange a 'Quest', and plan for Hermione to 'slow Harry down' in fulfilling it, if in the end Harry abandoned the search?
The whole thing is such a shambles I no longer understand what Rowling wanted her readers to believe or see. Can anyone assist?
Reply
The whole backbone of Deathly Hallows - that Dumbledore had set up a 'plan' for the Trio, with clues in Hermione's book of fairy tales about the Deathly Hallows - is a fatal error, since he had no time to change his will before he was killed by Snape on the tower. His plan was to die undefeated (or grant it to Snape); Snape killed him; end of story. So the trail of clues that Harry followed like a pet poodle in DH couldn't have been set up by Dumbledore in the first place; Dumbledore had no time to write a new will after Draco disarmed him and became the Elder Wand's new master. That's a critical flaw in the book that fails the whole novel.
Dumbledore knew Voldemort had Ollivander and knew Voldemort would want a solution to the brother-wand problem. So he could have suspected Voldemort might end up chasing the Elder Wand at some point. Even if the Wand was supposed to be powerless by then knowing what it was might have helped Harry understand what Voldemort was doing. But it was a stupid way to go about explaining things to Harry.
So there *was* a plan, a 'Quest', set out by Dumbledore - as he admitted in Kings Cross - but was the only clue that which he provided via the Bard's book to Hermione? Trusting that Harry would discover the rest - be told about the symbol by Krum, be led to Lovegood, accidentally and conveniently eavesdrop on Voldemort's every move via the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network - all by chance?
At the end of HBP Harry out of the blue decided he had to visit his parents' graves at Godric's Hollow. We know Ignotus Peverel's grave with the sign of the Hallows is there. And Bathilda was still alive when Albus died. So perhaps Dumbledore somehow planted the idea to go to Godric's Hollow in Harry's mind, though Rowling should have had him mention the place explicitly. But other than the mark in the book and Ignotus' grave and possibly something that might have come from Bathilda there were no clues Dumbledore could have reasonably expected to set Harry on this quest. Maybe Dumbledore expected Rita Skeeter to dig up the dirt from his early years. I suppose once Hermione had the connection between the mark in the storybook, the Peverells and Albus himself she was supposed to research it herself, maybe in the Black family library? or perhaps Bathilda knew one or more of the Questers? All she had to find out was that there were wizards who believed the Hallows were true artifacts and perhaps something about the history of the Deathstick. Because that's all Xeno told her that the book didn't.
Not that I think it makes any sense in the first place, from Dumbledore's POV before he went with Harry to the cave.
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1) At the time Dumbledore left his clue, he already possessed two of the three objects and Harry possessed the third. He could have just left Harry the damn wand in the first place and Harry would have had all three items by the sixth chapter of DH.
2) Dumbledore had to leave that clue for Hermione to find because Harry was too stupid to realize it was a clue, had he even bothered to open the book that his beloved mentor left him. (Other books from Dumbledore that he never bothered to open: All the ones about Horcruxes and how to destroy them.)
3) Harry lost the stone before he got the wand and before the wand could have possibly recognized him as its "master." Therefore, he never was the Master of Death.
Reply
Harry wouldn't have been the 'master' of that wand, though (crazy though that sounds).
Other books from Dumbledore that he never bothered to open: All the ones about Horcruxes and how to destroy them.
Harry never even thought to acquire those books in the first place, or muse that they might exist! It was Hermione who - *cough*unbelievable*cough* - thought to poke her wand out of her dormitory window and say 'accio books to solve all of our problems please'.
Harry lost the stone before he got the wand and before the wand could have possibly recognized him as its "master." Therefore, he never was the Master of Death.
Nice one!!!! I love it!!
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Plan? What 'plan'?
I do not think it means what Dumbledore thinks it means ... :-)
There was no 'plan', just crossed-fingers hopes and coincidences. And I still can't figure out what Rowling actually wanted her readers to think, it was all so jumbled. He wanted Harry to search for the Elder Wand ... he wanted Hermione to slow Harry down in his search for the Wand ... but in the end Harry deliberately decides to abandon the search anyway, and stick to the Hallows. Dumbledore's plan for Harry to acquire the Elder Wand *failed*. If that was his plan.
Harry only acquired the Wand later through pure luck and authorial fiat.
Reply
Not that there is any reason but Harry's imaginings to believe it mattered that he was the wand's master. Yes, it was important that Voldemort not master it. And I'm almost certain it was important that Voldemort believed he had done so. But beyond that it didn't matter who other than Voldemort had the mastery at the time of their confrontation.
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Well, he could have updated the will when he sent Harry away to bring the invisibility cloak that was in his pocket all year long according to Dumbles' own instructions. Harry had just revealed to him that Draco had just had a breakthrough of some sort, so Albus could have figured he might not return to his office (at least not in 3 dimensional form) and made any changes he wanted to make. Perhaps that was when he decided to add the sword to the will - if originally he thought he'd be able to use it on the Horcrux but now thought this was not going to be likely.
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