Chapter 22 of A Secret Gate is up today. Given the length of time it took to get it there, it ought to be a creation of flawless beauty and depth. I’m sad to say it isn’t; it has its moments, though
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Thank you so much for reading, and for doing so with such care and insight. I love your comments and observations and I’m so pleased that you found so much to think about and enjoy in this offering.
I think I have inadvertently given the wrong impression about the business of lifting the little scene from the movie, so I will try to correct that impression now. The danger of playing with movie-verse is that you need to be very careful about extrapolating what you want without loading up a lot of stuff you have no use for. I didn’t really make clear that while I lifted the words and vision that Gandalf offered to Pippin in that moment, I did not lift with them the movie’s interpretation of that vision as regards Frodo. The fact is, I didn’t even see the connection, because I knew where Frodo was going at the end of the film, even if PJ, for the sake of what he supposed to be a plebeian audience, suggested otherwise. I just laid my interpretation right over his, and kept moving. I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that all Tolkien readers did the same in order to make the film come right in their own minds.
So to set the record straight, to my way of thinking, the Pippin-Gandalf scene had nothing to do with Frodo’s story-which for me remained Tolkien’s idea that he went for healing and for experiencing the joy he had sacrificed for Middle-earth. Which answers your question “do you not think he (Pippin) would have tried to tell him(Merry) when Frodo sailed, or sometime afterward, knowing Merry's terrible grief, and having some way to comfort him?” No, because they both knew enough-from Gandalf and the company that took ship with Frodo and Bilbo, and from Sam’s subsequent yearnings over the years-to know that wherever he had gone, Frodo was in the healing hands of Gandalf and the Elves and that he would be cared for. Merry knew this, but because Frodo’s absence felt like a death to him, he (in my story) railed at it as if it was.
In Chapter 9 of this story, Jamy and Merry have a conversation about Frodo:
“Whatever happened to him was bad, wasn’t it?” The boy’s small face was grave. “Did he die of it, sir?”
The Master sighed. “No, but he could not stay in the Shire. We saw him to the Grey Havens; that’s an anchorage beyond the Tower Hills in the Westmarch. He took ship there with the Elves and sailed away into the West….”
… A shadow seemed to flicker in the boy’s eyes for an instant. “You’ve seen the sea, sir…what is it like there, on the shore?”
He answered gravely, “Nothing like the river, child. It stretches to the horizon and beyond, a great world of water, and the tides rise and fall without end. The Elves called their journey on it the Straight Road, you know, but it seemed a great barrier to me, with Frodo gone beyond it forever.”
Jamy’s hands settled and traced gently the pale cheek of the Ring-bearer. “…Do you think the Elvish land made him happy, sir? Do you think he got well there?”
He shook his head. “I don’t know, lad. I always hoped so.”
I apologize that I did not make this clear: I took the moment, for purposes of events set to play out 65 years down the road, but I did not take Pjs subsequent subversion of it with regard to Frodo.
Someone else has complained to me about Gandalf’s co-opting the shoreline of Eressea for mortals, thus perpetuating a flat-out lie and blasphemy. To this, all I can suggest is that perhaps the grey rain curtain and far green country represent only the gateway to the many circles of the world, and that all may look upon them before they go their own ways.
Now, as to what lies beyond for Merry and Pippin, I am aware of Lindelea’s and also Larner’s lovely visions of the Afterworld. I await enlightenment-and so we shall see what we shall see!
Again, many thanks, and I hope all this makes sense!
I perhaps was also not clear in my musings. I really didn't think you were writing in movie verse; nothing else in what you've written strays that far from canon. My comment about what Pippin might have said to Merry was a sort of speculation about what Movie-verse Pippin might have said or thought, after having the conversation with Gandalf brought to mind, and wasn't supposed to apply specifically to your story. I had just never thought about taking the extrapolation far enough to realize that in the movie, Pippin does have some idea about where Frodo is going. While watching the movie, I knew where he was going, and as you said, that was enough for the moment.
And I had forgotten the conversation in Chapter 9. I read all of those early chapters in such a bunch, that the details of them have become a little blurred. I will have to go back and re-read some of it, to fix it more firmly in my mind. It is a very thought-provoking story, and does deserve careful consideration.
Oh, I see what you meant! I'm sorry I didn't realize you meant movie-Pippin there! But in that case, yes: he must have told Merry what he knew, and in that universe they would have gone on to contemplate the idea together....and in that reality I could see Gandalf saying goodbye with a little wink.... :)
It's so confusing, isn't it? Coordinating book, movie bits and fan-fiction in a way that doesn't change the space-time continuum is a scary business!
Again, so many thanks. I thought I'd garnered all my comments last week; yours was a welcome surprise this morning!
There are times when I love PJ's interpretation, especially when I see how it has brought so many people together in their love for Tolkien's story and characters. There are also some specific images and scenes that I find very lovely. There are other times it drives me crazy, and when it muddies the waters that is one of the times. Carry on!
I think I have inadvertently given the wrong impression about the business of lifting the little scene from the movie, so I will try to correct that impression now. The danger of playing with movie-verse is that you need to be very careful about extrapolating what you want without loading up a lot of stuff you have no use for. I didn’t really make clear that while I lifted the words and vision that Gandalf offered to Pippin in that moment, I did not lift with them the movie’s interpretation of that vision as regards Frodo. The fact is, I didn’t even see the connection, because I knew where Frodo was going at the end of the film, even if PJ, for the sake of what he supposed to be a plebeian audience, suggested otherwise. I just laid my interpretation right over his, and kept moving. I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that all Tolkien readers did the same in order to make the film come right in their own minds.
So to set the record straight, to my way of thinking, the Pippin-Gandalf scene had nothing to do with Frodo’s story-which for me remained Tolkien’s idea that he went for healing and for experiencing the joy he had sacrificed for Middle-earth. Which answers your question “do you not think he (Pippin) would have tried to tell him(Merry) when Frodo sailed, or sometime afterward, knowing Merry's terrible grief, and having some way to comfort him?” No, because they both knew enough-from Gandalf and the company that took ship with Frodo and Bilbo, and from Sam’s subsequent yearnings over the years-to know that wherever he had gone, Frodo was in the healing hands of Gandalf and the Elves and that he would be cared for. Merry knew this, but because Frodo’s absence felt like a death to him, he (in my story) railed at it as if it was.
In Chapter 9 of this story, Jamy and Merry have a conversation about Frodo:
“Whatever happened to him was bad, wasn’t it?” The boy’s small face was grave. “Did he die of it, sir?”
The Master sighed. “No, but he could not stay in the Shire. We saw him to the Grey Havens; that’s an anchorage beyond the Tower Hills in the Westmarch. He took ship there with the Elves and sailed away into the West….”
… A shadow seemed to flicker in the boy’s eyes for an instant. “You’ve seen the sea, sir…what is it like there, on the shore?”
He answered gravely, “Nothing like the river, child. It stretches to the horizon and beyond, a great world of water, and the tides rise and fall without end. The Elves called their journey on it the Straight Road, you know, but it seemed a great barrier to me, with Frodo gone beyond it forever.”
Jamy’s hands settled and traced gently the pale cheek of the Ring-bearer. “…Do you think the Elvish land made him happy, sir? Do you think he got well there?”
He shook his head. “I don’t know, lad. I always hoped so.”
I apologize that I did not make this clear: I took the moment, for purposes of events set to play out 65 years down the road, but I did not take Pjs subsequent subversion of it with regard to Frodo.
Someone else has complained to me about Gandalf’s co-opting the shoreline of Eressea for mortals, thus perpetuating a flat-out lie and blasphemy. To this, all I can suggest is that perhaps the grey rain curtain and far green country represent only the gateway to the many circles of the world, and that all may look upon them before they go their own ways.
Now, as to what lies beyond for Merry and Pippin, I am aware of Lindelea’s and also Larner’s lovely visions of the Afterworld. I await enlightenment-and so we shall see what we shall see!
Again, many thanks, and I hope all this makes sense!
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And I had forgotten the conversation in Chapter 9. I read all of those early chapters in such a bunch, that the details of them have become a little blurred. I will have to go back and re-read some of it, to fix it more firmly in my mind. It is a very thought-provoking story, and does deserve careful consideration.
FF
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It's so confusing, isn't it? Coordinating book, movie bits and fan-fiction in a way that doesn't change the space-time continuum is a scary business!
Again, so many thanks. I thought I'd garnered all my comments last week; yours was a welcome surprise this morning!
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