Factio Effrenata Roundtable: Why Did We Choose a Reality With American Imperialism In It?
This discussion was sparked from listening to the recordings on this excellent site: The Weekend Interview Show With Scott Horton. We also recommend its companion site, www.antiwar.com.
Roundtable discussion: Why did we pick a reality in which "our" country, the one we live in, is oppressing foreign nations? What can we learn from this, & what opportunities for growth & action does it represent?
Mely: I think it has to do with accepting responsibility -- realizing that there is no oppressor "out there" & we are each the oppressor within.
Anomia: Even though we didn't vote for this fellow, do we still have responsibility, in some manner, for choosing to be born in this country, for being part of it & its collective consciousness?
Mely: Well, we're all part of the mixture but we're different ingredients -- "salt" or "leaven", to borrow the Biblical metaphor. Some people in the collective consciousness are pushing it one way & some another.
Anomia : "Part of the solution or part of the problem", in other words?
Mely: I think we were born to be a dissenting faction within the collective consciousness. To give balance within this nation, which is one reason why we chose here & not a Third World country, for instance. Of course, we have many other reasons for identifying with America.
Marlana: I think part of it, too, is that we have a strong identification with being the villain, the "bad guy", and right now the US is certainly playing that role.
Anomia: So we are to tap in and upgrade the "dark" aspects of the imperialist project? Discover & represent the hidden good within it?
Mely: Annie, that is extremely subversive...
Anomia: Of course, and also consistent.
Marlana: Okay, so what are the "good" things, on a symbolic level, about being imperialistic? (For those reading this, I'll note that I am not endorsing the actions on a literal level.)
It's the whole "take over the world" concept -- "everybody wants to rule the world" as an 80's song said. There's a great deal of power & energy locked up in that concept.
Anomia: But everybody can rule the world -- their own copy of the world.
Mely: Decentralize imperialism? Rewrite the concept to represent an Empire of Each and All.
Anomia: I think we also have to recognize the levels we are dealing with here: "Imperialism" on an abstract, symbolic, semantic level, versus the literal, physical & quite sordid behavior of our country's government & military. In our metaphysical system, changing the meta-level will ultimately cause changes to trickle or percolate down into the concrete, physical level.
Mely: "Percolate" goes up, I think.
Anomia: Not in zero-g. I'm not sure what would happen in zero-g. Oh... I imagine if it were a coffeepot, heat convection would cause the liquid to percolate away from the source of heat. So it would percolate "outwards".
Mely: That metaphor fits, too. "As within, so without".
Marlana: So, what we have got so far? Owning and uplifting our inner villain archetype. Being either salt or leaven in the bread mix.
Mely: I want to be the baking soda. Arm&Hammer -- it's so Thor.
Marlana: I think what conventional anti-imperialist discourse leaves out is not to recognize the motives lying within such actions -- eg. fear of attack, desire for both security & power, all of which are natural & worthwhile human desires. These desires have to be fulfilled or satisfied in some other manner before Americans (etc.) will be ready to let go of our current coercive policies. We need to offer alternatives to coercive behavior, in other words. Simply condemning and trying to shame people with moralistic rhetoric will only go so far.
Anomia: The only way to achieve morality is go beyond morality.
Mely: Oooh, a spontaneous profound saying. I like that.
Anomia: Mm. So the real way to attack (physical-world) imperialism is to appeal to people's self-interest? What about those who have altruistic value systems, and, at least in principle, regard other motives as "better" than self-interest?
Marlana: Perhaps what is needed is a combination of both.
Mely: Another thing is, what level are we working on? Admittedly our social-level involvement currently only involves posting information on the internet for those who might want to see it, which does serve a useful purpose in the global info network, even if it touches only a small number of individuals at a time. Perhaps, dealing with this situation on the inner level is what we need to do most now.
Marlana: Imperialism won't be gotten rid of overnight. It's been around for a very long time in history -- ever since there have been city-states big enough to support military excursions. We chose to be born at this particular point in history, at this stage of the game, to drop our marble in the barrel -- with the intuitive understanding that we will drop it at the exact right place to make the maximum impact. History is a chaotic system, & each individual contribution, however minor, can trigger cascading changes, generate new chains of parallel realities.
Mely: I think, right now, we should just keep learning about it. It's amazing how much there is to learn.
Claribel: I used to feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of info, a while back, but now the speedreading training is starting to stick, and also I just feel more in synch. We've changed so immensely in the recent past. I think it's been a paradigm shift.
Mely: Definitely.
Claribel: I think it's that I've come to realise that we do live in a chaotic system, that's what reality is, and that's what I want. So I can be happy about reality, and enjoy living in it, because it's just as subversive and transgressive and wonderfully "bad" as I am myself. We've really known it all along, but on a less direct level, and now it's percolated (as it were) into the more direct & concrete one.
Mely: Leap off into chaos. Just enjoy living in a bad, evil world...
Claribel: And fully own the fact that we chose it. Sometimes that is still difficult. But we're getting there.
Roundtable discussion: Why did we pick a reality in which "our" country, the one we live in, is oppressing foreign nations? What can we learn from this, & what opportunities for growth & action does it represent?
Mely: I think it has to do with accepting responsibility -- realizing that there is no oppressor "out there" & we are each the oppressor within.
Anomia: Even though we didn't vote for this fellow, do we still have responsibility, in some manner, for choosing to be born in this country, for being part of it & its collective consciousness?
Mely: Well, we're all part of the mixture but we're different ingredients -- "salt" or "leaven", to borrow the Biblical metaphor. Some people in the collective consciousness are pushing it one way & some another.
Anomia : "Part of the solution or part of the problem", in other words?
Mely: I think we were born to be a dissenting faction within the collective consciousness. To give balance within this nation, which is one reason why we chose here & not a Third World country, for instance. Of course, we have many other reasons for identifying with America.
Marlana: I think part of it, too, is that we have a strong identification with being the villain, the "bad guy", and right now the US is certainly playing that role.
Anomia: So we are to tap in and upgrade the "dark" aspects of the imperialist project? Discover & represent the hidden good within it?
Mely: Annie, that is extremely subversive...
Anomia: Of course, and also consistent.
Marlana: Okay, so what are the "good" things, on a symbolic level, about being imperialistic? (For those reading this, I'll note that I am not endorsing the actions on a literal level.)
It's the whole "take over the world" concept -- "everybody wants to rule the world" as an 80's song said. There's a great deal of power & energy locked up in that concept.
Anomia: But everybody can rule the world -- their own copy of the world.
Mely: Decentralize imperialism? Rewrite the concept to represent an Empire of Each and All.
Anomia: I think we also have to recognize the levels we are dealing with here: "Imperialism" on an abstract, symbolic, semantic level, versus the literal, physical & quite sordid behavior of our country's government & military. In our metaphysical system, changing the meta-level will ultimately cause changes to trickle or percolate down into the concrete, physical level.
Mely: "Percolate" goes up, I think.
Anomia: Not in zero-g. I'm not sure what would happen in zero-g. Oh... I imagine if it were a coffeepot, heat convection would cause the liquid to percolate away from the source of heat. So it would percolate "outwards".
Mely: That metaphor fits, too. "As within, so without".
Marlana: So, what we have got so far? Owning and uplifting our inner villain archetype. Being either salt or leaven in the bread mix.
Mely: I want to be the baking soda. Arm&Hammer -- it's so Thor.
Marlana: I think what conventional anti-imperialist discourse leaves out is not to recognize the motives lying within such actions -- eg. fear of attack, desire for both security & power, all of which are natural & worthwhile human desires. These desires have to be fulfilled or satisfied in some other manner before Americans (etc.) will be ready to let go of our current coercive policies. We need to offer alternatives to coercive behavior, in other words. Simply condemning and trying to shame people with moralistic rhetoric will only go so far.
Anomia: The only way to achieve morality is go beyond morality.
Mely: Oooh, a spontaneous profound saying. I like that.
Anomia: Mm. So the real way to attack (physical-world) imperialism is to appeal to people's self-interest? What about those who have altruistic value systems, and, at least in principle, regard other motives as "better" than self-interest?
Marlana: Perhaps what is needed is a combination of both.
Mely: Another thing is, what level are we working on? Admittedly our social-level involvement currently only involves posting information on the internet for those who might want to see it, which does serve a useful purpose in the global info network, even if it touches only a small number of individuals at a time. Perhaps, dealing with this situation on the inner level is what we need to do most now.
Marlana: Imperialism won't be gotten rid of overnight. It's been around for a very long time in history -- ever since there have been city-states big enough to support military excursions. We chose to be born at this particular point in history, at this stage of the game, to drop our marble in the barrel -- with the intuitive understanding that we will drop it at the exact right place to make the maximum impact. History is a chaotic system, & each individual contribution, however minor, can trigger cascading changes, generate new chains of parallel realities.
Mely: I think, right now, we should just keep learning about it. It's amazing how much there is to learn.
Claribel: I used to feel overwhelmed by the sheer amount of info, a while back, but now the speedreading training is starting to stick, and also I just feel more in synch. We've changed so immensely in the recent past. I think it's been a paradigm shift.
Mely: Definitely.
Claribel: I think it's that I've come to realise that we do live in a chaotic system, that's what reality is, and that's what I want. So I can be happy about reality, and enjoy living in it, because it's just as subversive and transgressive and wonderfully "bad" as I am myself. We've really known it all along, but on a less direct level, and now it's percolated (as it were) into the more direct & concrete one.
Mely: Leap off into chaos. Just enjoy living in a bad, evil world...
Claribel: And fully own the fact that we chose it. Sometimes that is still difficult. But we're getting there.